24 October 2000
Source: Court Reporters Office of the Southern District of New York
See related court docket: http://cryptome.org/qaeda102000.htm
This transcript is from an appearance by Mamdouh Mahmud Salim before Judge Sand on October 20, 2000. Mr. Salim is one of 17 defendants in the bombing of US Embassies in Kenya and Sudan.
------------------------------------------------------------------- 154 0AK1SALH Hearing 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 ------------------------------x 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 4 v. S(6)98CR1023(LBS) 5 MAMDOUH MAHMUD SALIM, 6 Defendant. 7 ------------------------------x 8 October 20, 2000 2:00 p.m. 9 Before: 10 HON. LEONARD B. SAND, 11 District Judge 12 13 APPEARANCES 14 MARY JO WHITE, United States Attorney 15 for the Southern District of New York BY: KEN KARAS 16 MICHAEL GARCIA 17 PAUL J. MC ALLISTER CHARLES D. ADLER, 18 Attorneys for Defendant 19 ALSO PRESENT: Michael Anticev, 20 FBI Agent Lili Grant 21 Gerard Franceso, Paralegals, US Attorney's Office 22 Interpreters: AZIZ ISMAIL, ANDRE COUDOUNI (Arabic) 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 155 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Good afternoon. You may be seated. Mr. 3 McAllister. 4 MR. MC ALLISTER: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Call your next witness. 6 MR. MC ALLISTER: Mr. Salim. 7 (Pause) 8 MR. MC ALLISTER: Your Honor, just so you know, 9 Mr. Salim wishes to affirm rather than to be sworn. 10 THE COURT: Very well. 11 MAMDOUH MAHMUD SALIM, 12 the defendant, testifed as follows: 13 THE DEPUTY CLERK: (Through the interpreter) 14 Do you solemnly and truly declare and affirm the 15 testimony you're about to give this court during the 16 suppression hearing shall be the truth the wholly truth and 17 nothing but the truth, you do so declare and affirm. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 May I sit down? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Please state your full name. 22 THE WITNESS: May I have a moment please to just 23 arrange my papers? 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 (Pause) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 156 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 THE WITNESS: They brought me suddenly unexpectedly 2 so I didn't have enough time to arrange my papers. 3 THE COURT: Maybe he can just state what is his name. 4 THE DEFENDANT (In English): Okay. My name Mamdouh 5 son of Mahmud son of Salim. 6 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Thank you. 7 (Pause) 8 THE COURT: Mr. McAllister, you may begin. 9 DIRECT EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. MC ALLISTER: 11 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Salim. 12 Mr. Salim, were you arrested in Munich, Germany on 13 September 16 of 1998? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Will you please describe for us the circumstances of your 16 arrest, where it occurred and how it occurred? 17 A. At 4 p.m. Wednesday, 16th of September I had not yet had 18 my lunch. I and my friend Awad went out to the automobile 19 dealership looking for a car. When we arrived at the 20 dealership and we got out of the car that we were driving, 21 some armed men approached us from behind and they pointed the 22 guns to my head and they asked me to lie on the floor on my 23 stomach, and they handcuffed us and they took us to the 24 police. I did not know what was the reason for the arrest. 25 Q. You were arrested with other people you told us? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 157 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 A. Well, yes, there were other different people at the 2 dealership. 3 Q. Can you tell us who else was arrested, if you know? 4 A. The Germans I don't know because they released them 5 immediately. There was also another friend of mine who is a 6 German, but who was originally an Arab. His name is Awad. 7 All the circumstances of the arrest were shot by video. 8 Q. Well, that was my next question. 9 You say there was a video recording of the arrest. 10 Is that correct? 11 A. The same, the people who arrested us had other people with 12 them who were part of the police force and they were shooting 13 the events by video. 14 Q. Now, let me ask you, when you, at that time, which is 15 almost two years ago, how was your understanding of the 16 English language in relation to now? 17 A. I may speak in English now to expedite matters and to 18 reduce the time, but I wish to have the interpreter stand next 19 to me in case I need any assistance. 20 Q. Well, how was your English? Was it good or bad? How was 21 your English, your knowledge of the English language when you 22 were examined? 23 A. (In English) I already studied the electrical engineering 24 in university for four years and this was up to 1980 which is 25 20 years ago, and my language at that time until now or at SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 158 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 least till the day that they arrest me it was technical 2 language. I can speak with an engineer for hours, but with a 3 lawyer it's very difficult for me to speak for minutes, but 4 after I'd been arrested and then unfortunately extradited here 5 I decided to improve my language because I think this will 6 assist me to defend myself, hoping that I can win the case 7 because I am innocent. 8 Q. Now, then with respect to -- let me withdraw that. 9 I guess you heard with, the assistance of the 10 translator, the number of people police officers German and 11 American testified that they had given you warnings, so-called 12 Miranda rights in the case of the Americans. Was that clear 13 to you? Were those warnings or rights that were allegedly 14 given to you, were they clear to you at the time or not? 15 A. (In English) For the Miranda I think we should talk about 16 two type of Miranda because two type of people made 17 interrogation with me, the Miranda for the German people and 18 the Miranda for the FBI, I mean which is the United States 19 people. 20 Regarding the German, I understood that I had the 21 right not to talk after eight months of my arrest. That's the 22 first time I understood that I had the right not to talk. It 23 was in May when I was being already extradited here since the 24 21st of December '98 but in early matter '99 I received bundle 25 of German document with associated translated in English from SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 159 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 my lawyer, and when I was trying to read these document I 2 discovered that one paper of the German that the German people 3 asked me to sign it, without that I understand what is in it, 4 that when it's been translated into English, it was telling a 5 story that they informed me about my right not to talk and I 6 agreed that and I refused to sign the paper. 7 The funny thing that this alleged paper that I 8 refused to sign it, which is my Miranda right, it still 9 exists -- not exist to now, well, more than two years of my 10 arrest. Till now we don't have this paper that I refused to 11 sign it. 12 But it was just stating the story that there was a 13 paper and I refused to sign -- I accept to talk, but I refused 14 to sign it. This is very, very funny thing because they can 15 produce 3,000 pages that I agreed, and I refused to sign it. 16 You can bring as much as you want of paper and just say he 17 agreed with these things and he refused to sign it. So this 18 is regarding to the German Miranda. 19 When the interpreter asked me to sign this German 20 document I told him that I cannot sign a German document 21 because I can read and understand Arabic, but in case it's 22 difficult for you, if you can put it in English at least then 23 I can may understand what's in it. But the interpreter he 24 told me, the interpreter -- I mean the translator from Arabic 25 to German and German to Arabic he told me: You don't trust SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 160 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 me? I am sworn translator and I am not cheating you. 2 But actually he asked me to sign that but so to 3 protect myself I wrote in the below, I can sign this paper if 4 it is in Arabic or English. And I repeated this thing because 5 I don't know what is inside. Of course I knew after eight 6 months what that paper that I signed for that. 7 Q. Now, with respect to the so-called, the American so-called 8 advice of rights form, you were never shown such a form that 9 was in English and Arabic while you were in Germany, were you? 10 A. (In English) The strange thing that when the FBI came, 11 although they know that my first language is Arabic, there is 12 a lot of Arabic-English translator not even here, over there 13 anywhere, they didn't bring with them from English to Arabic, 14 but they brought with them English to German, and I cannot 15 speak German. 16 Of course I can speak English much better than German 17 or even for German, maybe I understood only yes and no for 18 German. Then they were using another translator from the 19 German to Arabic. For the Miranda that they gave it to me it 20 was in English. I have here another Miranda which is given to 21 another codefendant. 22 Q. Well, why don't we not refer to the documents at the 23 moment and just offer your testimony. 24 A. I have here Miranda -- 25 THE COURT: No. Just answer the questions posed by SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 161 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 your attorney. Go ahead. 2 Q. Had you finished your answer concerning the absence of an 3 American so-called advice of rights form with respect to 4 whether it was in Arabic and English? I gather you said were 5 you not shown one in -- 6 A. (In English) No, they gave me only in English. 7 Q. Now, there was a lot of questioning by the prosecutor of 8 the various witnesses about promises, whether promises were or 9 were not made to you in Germany. 10 Did you have any understandings, whether they were 11 literal promises or not, did you have any understandings in 12 your own mind with respect to whether or not there was a 13 promise or at least and understanding between you and the 14 interrogators? 15 A. (In English) But you are disregarding the last question 16 that whether there was an Arabic-English, actually yes, there 17 is an Arabic-English with the FBI, but I show you this 18 Arabic-English after extradition. In the airplane the 19 prosecutor give me my Miranda in Arabic-English. When I read 20 it, I shocked. I told him, no one in the world would sign 21 this paper. Then I told him, why you didn't give me this when 22 you came? He said, at that time I don't have. But I told you 23 I can see about 50 copy with you, and it is just a paper. 24 It's very important you bring this at least one copy when you 25 are going to arrest an Arabic accused man. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 162 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 Q. And these 50 copies, do I understand you correctly, that 2 you saw that on the plane when you were already on the way 3 here? 4 A. (In English) Exactly. 5 Q. Long after your interrogation? 6 A. (In English) After three months, more than three months of 7 my arrest and I have this copy for -- that's why you will not 8 see my signature on this paper, because it's very clear in 9 Arabic, but they didn't give me an Arabic. And the more 10 interesting thing that they have another paper which was given 11 to United States nation which is one codefendant his name 12 Wadih El Hage, he's an American, and he has get married with 13 an American, he has seven child and I think -- 14 MR. GARCIA: Objection, Judge. Move to strike. 15 THE COURT: Sustained. 16 A. (In English)This paper is written in Arabic and English. 17 This was given. 18 THE COURT: Sir, I sustained the objection. Your 19 attorney will ask you another question. 20 Q. Mr. Salim, I guess I'll put my question that I put last, 21 although you returned to a previous one. 22 In your mind were there any understandings, or if 23 they didn't rise to the level of promises, were you given any 24 understandings in your own mind concerning what would or would 25 not happen if you spoke to the American people in Germany? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 163 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 A. (In English)The paper that I was given in English telling 2 me that since we are not in the United States we cannot offer 3 you a lawyer, but in the United States -- sorry -- in the 4 United States if you could not afford a lawyer, one would be 5 appointed for you if you wish before any questioning. So this 6 is talking that if we were in the United States, but here in 7 Germany, we will not give you a lawyer, but for the other 8 Miranda for other defendants -- 9 MR. GARCIA: Objection. 10 THE COURT: What you can testify to are the events 11 that took place and what you knew and understood in Germany 12 during the period beginning September 16th and ending sometime 13 before your extradition. 14 If you have argument to make, such as what other 15 documents exist or could have been made, then share them with 16 your lawyer and I will give your lawyer an opportunity to file 17 a brief following this hearing in which you can make all of 18 the arguments that you think will be helpful to you, but for 19 these purposes all you can testify to is what happened and 20 what you understood in Germany during the period September 21 16th up until your extradition, up until the period when you 22 stopped answering questions in Germany. 23 Mr. McAllister. 24 MR. MC ALLISTER: Thank you, your Honor. 25 Q. Mr. Salim, had you completed your answer concerning SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 164 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 whether or not in your mind there were any, if not promises, 2 understandings in your mind concerning what would or would not 3 happen if you spoke or refused to speak in Germany? Had you 4 finished your answer with respect to that? 5 If so, I'll ask another question. If not, then you 6 can answer. 7 A. (In English)I was trying to show that my rights was 8 violated by this paper regarding two things. Number one -- 9 THE COURT: We understand that. Now you were asked 10 another question now. Move on, Mr. Salim. Move on now to the 11 next question, which is a very important question. Please 12 answer it if you can. 13 Q. Should I repeat it, Mr. Salim? 14 THE INTERPRETER: Please repeat it, yes. 15 Q. My question to you was whether or not in your mind there 16 were any understandings or promises, but if not promises, at 17 least understandings in your mind, concerning what would or 18 would not happen if you chose to speak in Germany? 19 A. (In English)I think this the positive way to talk about 20 promise. There is the a negative way and there is a phrase, 21 and here it's written that no promises or threats have been 22 made to me and no pressure or something of any kind has been 23 used against me. And the word threat, I don't know what the 24 meaning of the word threat when I signed this paper. And 25 actually there was a threat. The threat would be SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 165 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 considerable. The threat would be considerable if a powerful 2 man or authority threats you. I mean if a child will threaten 3 me, I will not afraid because he's not powerful, but the 4 people who threat me they're powerful, and I saw by my own 5 eye, I hear by my own ear that they are powerful. The sign of 6 this powerful that the people who came to arrest for the FBI 7 and the prosecutor they were as a powerful that they were 8 authorized to take some of the discovery and to put it in 9 their pocket without allowing -- I mean, before we just 10 started from the German, and I was looking to the smile, very 11 good smile from Mr. Karas when he was opening my billfold up 12 and he was happy when he took it out the Citibank card, 13 because he saw that I have Citibank card. Then it would be 14 very good that they can trace my account. Hopefully no 15 tourist would put his money in Citibank, because Citibank is 16 a -- 17 MR. GARCIA: Objection. Move to strike. 18 THE COURT: Sustained. Try it again. 19 Q. Were you, were there any understandings -- you can finish 20 the answer you have -- but were there any understandings in 21 your mind? 22 A. (In English)I finished this regarding -- I finished 23 this -- 24 THE COURT: Mr. Salim, try to listen to your lawyer's 25 questions. Try to answer his questions. Don't try to be your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 166 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 own lawyer. It's a mistake. 2 Q. Have you completed that answer, Mr. Salim? 3 A. (In English) No, I said I was trying to describe for the 4 card finished, for the Citibank card, finish. Among the 5 things that was arrested with me that was CD Roms and these CD 6 Roms when I asked for that, who already I think he went from 7 here, the first day he was, he was here, I asked to have -- 8 THE COURT: No, no, we're not interested in the first 9 day that you were here. Understand -- 10 THE WITNESS: Okay, okay your Honor. 11 THE COURT: September 16th, just before your 12 extradition to Germany, and the question is your state of mind 13 when you were asked whether you would answer questions. You 14 understand that? 15 Now, have you told us now what your state of mind was 16 when you were asked whether you would answer questions by the 17 Germans or by the Americans? Have you answered that? 18 THE WITNESS: (In English) What I understand that I 19 been arrest, I should talk anyway, and when he saw by my own 20 eye and I hear by my own ear when I ask Folger for that, where 21 is my CDs. He said, the Americans took the CDs. 22 I told him, no, they should not take it. Give them 23 copy, it's okay. This should stay with me. Then I cannot, I 24 cannot do that. They took it already and I have proof for 25 that. I have inventory with the things that extradite with SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 167 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 me, the CDs are missing. Why? Because it was he already told 2 me -- 3 MR. GARCIA: Objection, Judge. 4 THE COURT: I think you have to move on. I think the 5 question has been put to the witness three times, and I assume 6 what we're just hearing is the witness' response to that 7 question. So move on. 8 MR. MC ALLISTER: Let me try it another way. 9 Q. Did you have any understanding in your own mind one way or 10 the other what would happen if you didn't speak in Germany? 11 In other words, did you have any -- 12 A. (In English) For the German as I, as I described for the 13 German, no one told me that I have the right to have a lawyer. 14 I'm talking about the first day, when the first day, no one 15 told me that I had the right to have a lawyer and no one told 16 me that I can keep silent, because as I already accepting 17 that, regardless regarding to the Miranda, English Miranda 18 when I was trying to read it, then there were double 19 translation that the FBI agents was trying to read it to me, 20 and the English-German was translated to German, then the 21 German to Arabic was translated to Arabic, and then if I want 22 to respond in Arabic it will go Arabic to German-English and 23 when I saw this is long way. I told them forget about that. 24 I will read this paper. 25 THE COURT: What was your understanding of what would SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 168 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 happen to you if you didn't answer questions as compared to 2 what would happen to you if you did answer questions? 3 THE WITNESS: (In English) For the first night when 4 I, when I was trying to read it, I couldn't understand. Then 5 I asked the FBI, why not you let me read it tomorrow? Then we 6 could talk. But the, the FBI he told me, we cannot talk with 7 you unless you sign. And this was not being used the German. 8 The German they did not tell me that there is a Miranda and if 9 you didn't sign, we'll not talk with you, because I didn't see 10 that paper till now. We don't have this paper. So actually 11 the FBI for the first night they failed to persuade or to 12 convince me or to let me to sign this paper. I took this 13 paper with me to my cell. 14 Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Salim. Obviously, you didn't want to 15 be brought to America. That's true, isn't it? 16 A. (In English) Second day they brought me again for 17 interrogation and again the FBI introduced me this paper. 18 THE COURT: Mr. Salim, did you hear the question that 19 was asked? The question was: Did you want to be brought to 20 America? Can you answer that yes or no? 21 THE WITNESS: (In English) No, no, why I should, I 22 did nothing to go there. 23 Q. Right now my next question is: Did you think you would be 24 brought to America if you did not speak in Germany? 25 A. (In English) I been, I been sure, sure. I mean it was SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 169 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 very clear not from my understanding. It was orally I hear, 2 but I'm just trying to describe when I hear this. Second day 3 when I came and again the FBI asked me to sign this paper, I 4 told them I didn't, I was not able to read this paper because 5 last night I came back to my cell hungry, and sleepy or hungry 6 and I want to sleep, and all the night they were awakened me. 7 He said, okay, then you should write, you should read it now 8 and sign it. Then I told him, no, I, I need time to. He 9 said, no, you should read it now and sign it. 10 Why don't we talk? He said, we cannot talk to you 11 unless you sign this one. Then I asked -- 12 THE COURT: Excuse me. This is that evening while 13 you're in your cell you were asked to read and sign? 14 THE WITNESS: (In English) No, I'm talking about the 15 second day of being seen morning when I've been brought again, 16 when I've been brought again for interrogation I told them I 17 didn't read it, because I didn't sleep until now when I came. 18 Even Folger he asked me, why you are look like weak and 19 sleepy? I told him because your people didn't let me sleep 20 all the night till now. 21 Then I ask Mr. Karas, ask him if I didn't sign this 22 one, or if I didn't talk with you, what will happen? He says, 23 nothing will happen. We will go to United States and we will 24 bring you there to talk there. Said, then I told him, okay, 25 then. This seems to me that I don't have option, I should SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 170 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 talk. He says no, you have, you have option. Then I repeat, 2 but if I didn't, what will happen? He says, we will go and 3 we'll take you America. I told him no, I don't want to go to 4 America. I did nothing. When I hear from this, and I saw by 5 what happened for the City and for the Citicard I understood 6 that is a powerful man. He's asked me that if I didn't talk 7 with him, they will take me to the United States. 8 Q. Now, you talked to us a little bit about right from the 9 first night what was going on in the prison in Germany, that 10 is right from September 16th of 1998, is that correct? 11 Why don't you tell us about the prison conditions 12 under which you were kept from September 16th on? 13 A. (In English) At the same night that they took me back to 14 prison at night they keep knocking my door, talking with me 15 every hour, sometimes even less than an hour, and they will 16 not, the guard will not leave me till I talk with him, I 17 should respond. I should say anything. And this continued 18 till morning. And this is starting the first night. 19 That's why when I went to interrogation morning 20 Folger asked me, and I told him because I couldn't sleep. 21 Then he told me I was talk with them for this matter and 22 actually he talked with them. Then I complain again the 23 second day, telling him, they are still awaken me. He said 24 no, I get you a permission that you can respond by hand. If 25 you are sleeping, they will knock every hour and you can make SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 171 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 like this. It's enough, no need to talk. 2 I told him, okay, then I should then awake to talk or 3 to wave, just in the same. And this continued during all the 4 interrogation for the FBI and, unfortunately, it's continue 5 with all the time with interrogation for the German, but they 6 reduce it from one hour to be two hours, and remain with me 7 till I be extradited here, but they reduce it to make it after 8 two times before 12 o'clock, and two times awake me after 12 9 o'clock. 10 I think the first night that I sleep was comfortable 11 it was here in the United States when I was right here when 12 they put me in the MCC was the first night after three month 13 of suffering that the guard they didn't awake me in MCC 14 because the game was over. 15 Q. Now, going back again to that second day, the 17th, that 16 was the day after your initial arrest. You were taken to 17 court on that day, were you not, the 17th of September of 18 1998? 19 A. (In English) Yes, on 17th as I said without, without 20 option I should sign, because if I didn't sign after they talk 21 I will be extradited here. Then after sign I talked with them 22 with the FBI people, but I don't know for how long. You see 23 from the paper. 24 Q. But my question to you is -- 25 A. (In English) They took me after that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 172 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 Q. -- were you taken to court? 2 A. (In English) I mean after I signed this one then they took 3 me to the Court. 4 Q. And when you arrived at court at some point did you ask 5 for a lawyer? 6 A. (In English) This was the first time that I understood 7 from the German that I have the right to have a lawyer, but 8 the right not to talk, I never understood that till after 9 eight month when I been extradited here, but I understood the 10 first one that I have the right to have a lawyer and the Judge 11 asked me: Do you want that we extradite you to United States 12 or do you want to have a lawyer? And I told him, oh, sure, I 13 want to have a lawyer, and I don't want to go to United 14 States. I did nothing to go there. 15 Q. Did you tell the German court that you would not make any 16 statements concerning the charges against you -- withdrawn. 17 Did you tell the German court that you would make 18 statements concerning the charges against you only with a 19 lawyer? 20 A. (In English) Yes, I told him. He said, if you want to 21 talk about anything? I said no, talk, but I want a lawyer. 22 Q. Now, after returning from court and having asked for a 23 lawyer, what happened? 24 A. When I returned back like I informed that I need a lawyer, 25 when I came back, and they were again ask, me do you wish to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 173 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 continue talking with you? Then I told you, I told him, why 2 you didn't tell me about the accusation when I -- 3 THE COURT: To whom were you speaking? 4 THE WITNESS: (In English) Sorry? 5 THE COURT: To whom were you speaking? 6 THE WITNESS: (In English) With the, with the, with 7 Karas, as he told, at that time I don't know what's meaning of 8 prosecutor, what's meaning of FBI. Of course I know FBI is 9 three English letter, but what it stands for, I don't know. 10 What's the meaning of the word prosecutor, I don't 11 know, because I never been in jail. I never been in court. I 12 knew nothing about all these things. So I then told Mr. 13 Karas, I told him, why you didn't tell me about the charges 14 that you are charging me in case that yesterday when I asked 15 you, you told me, you don't know details what there is against 16 me. 17 But I told him, today I understood it from the German 18 court what you are accusing me. He said, then, well, if you 19 want to continue to talk -- and I told him, and I asked for a 20 lawyer from the Court. He said, but, still you have a 21 opportunity to talk without the assistance of a lawyer. 22 So I told him, okay, then, if I didn't talk, what 23 will happen? He repeated again, nothing will happen. We will 24 go to America and we take you there. You will talk there. I 25 told him, no, no. I told him, I must talk. So he said, no. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 174 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 You have option not to talk. I told him, but actually I don't 2 have option, because if I didn't talk he wants to take me to 3 the United States, so actually you give me an option, but this 4 is not an option for me. 5 Q. Now, Mr. Salim, at the time did you have asthma or do you 6 have asthma? 7 A. (In English) Before talking about asthma -- 8 THE COURT: No, we're talking about asthma now. The 9 question is do you have asthma? 10 THE WITNESS: (In English) Okay. Please go back to 11 the first question. I talk now -- 12 Q. You want to finish answering the previous question? 13 A. (In English) No. 14 Q. If you weren't finished, then complete your answer. 15 A. (In English) Regarding that I asked a lawyer in the court? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. (In English) When we went to court I asked, it was strange 18 that Folger said that he never hear from me that I asked for a 19 lawyer, and the same time he said he was with me when I asked 20 for lawyer in the court. 21 And so he knew that I need a lawyer and he hear. 22 When we came back, how the German continue to interrogate me 23 while he already hear by his own ear that I ask for a lawyer? 24 And in all the interrogation every small things was been 25 written down, even if I pray, if I go to the window, and this SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 175 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 is the important things that he again told me, this should be 2 written. 3 THE COURT: Were the Americans in the court in 4 Germany? 5 THE WITNESS: (In English) No. 6 THE COURT: Next question. 7 Q. If you -- 8 A. (In English) But I informed them when I came back that I 9 were in the court and I asked for -- no need to represent it 10 because I already said that. 11 THE COURT: Informed whom? 12 THE WITNESS: (In English) Inform the people who was 13 interrogating me, there was two people, one Karas, and the 14 second one I think his name is difficult, but yesterday he was 15 here. 16 THE COURT: Folger? 17 THE WITNESS: (In English) No. 18 Q. The FBI agent you mean? 19 A. (In English) Yeah, FBI, I cannot recall his, difficult. 20 Even that time I don't know his name. 21 Q. But the same man that was here from the FBI? 22 A. (In English) The same man yesterday was testifying here. 23 I told him that I already asked, but then I been told that, 24 what I already said. 25 Q. Have you completed the answer then, and now we can talk SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 176 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 about asthma? 2 A. (In English) For the asthma every people who have been -- 3 THE COURT: Yes or no, do you have asthma? 4 THE WITNESS: (In English) Yes. 5 THE COURT: What was your medical condition during 6 the period from September 15, 16, 17, 18. 7 THE WITNESS: (In English) I have asthma since almost 8 '88. And I think to be sure that I have asthma, you should 9 ask the doctor of the prison. You should get my medical 10 report from MCC here. 11 THE COURT: You tell us. You tell us what was your 12 medical condition during the period September 16, 17, 18th? 13 THE WITNESS: (In English) I, I already answered that 14 I had asthma since '88, and to now, so I think this date is 15 including this period, and all the people that they been asked 16 whether they saw me or I complain from asthma, I will never 17 complain from asthma to an FBI agent. I will complain for 18 asthma for a doctor. 19 Q. Now, we heard a lot of testimony from various witnesses 20 about suicide and you're being on a suicide watch. 21 Can you tell us about that? 22 A. (In English) I think this is very important issue because 23 we should, we should know the condition that I been kept 24 starting with the interrogation, and then when they accuse me 25 that I try suicide, the condition get worse. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 177 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 But every day keeping me awake everyday, an hour, 2 this is starting from the first night, and the people who 3 should be asked for that is the prison warden, Mr. Stuouf, and 4 the guard he was awake me. These are people who should be 5 asked for that. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Salim, we are asking you. You tell 7 us. You tell us what your physical condition was during these 8 days. 9 THE WITNESS: (In English) Yeah, I'm talking about 10 the awaking every hour. 11 THE COURT: No, we're talking about the asthma. 12 THE WITNESS: (In English) We finished asthma. Now 13 I'm talking about the suicide. 14 THE COURT: We finished with asthma, all right. 15 Q. This suicide business, this is what I asked you about. 16 A. (In English) Yes. 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. (In English) Yeah. That's time I want to, I want to raise 19 the issue why should I think about suicide, because suicide 20 the Folger accusing me of suicide is changed my condition for 21 keeping thing worse in Germany. 22 So what this condition was went worse. We should 23 know how it was and how it become. So how it was awake of 24 hour, and the people who should be asked for that, is the 25 people who were awaken me, that I asked to bring them here as SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 178 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 a witnesses, that the government refused to bring these 2 witnesses here. 3 MR. GARCIA: Objection. Move to strike, Judge. 4 THE COURT: Yes, granted. 5 Q. Were you finished with the discussion of suicide? 6 A. (In English) No. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. (In English) What happened for this false accusing me for 9 suicide is that I was repeatedly asking the Germans, please 10 let me call my family to talk with them. They refused. 11 Please let me talk with my embassy. They refused. 12 Then I told them, okay then. Please you, yourself, 13 because if you think that I have a code to send it to my 14 embassy or to my family, you, yourself, just this is the 15 number. Call the embassy. Call my family, just tell telling 16 them that I'm doing well, even I was not doing well, but 17 anyhow I should want to tell them that I'm doing well. They 18 refuse. 19 Then I got shocked even just to tell them via the 20 police themself. Then I told Folger, I told him, what do you 21 want from me? Then I open my chest -- I actually I get upset, 22 and I hit my head in the wall. No one was dying when he hit 23 his head with a wall. But the false accusation for suicide 24 was when I told Folger, I was anger, opened my clothes and ask 25 him, I told him, okay, then, if you want, you have pistol, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 179 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 just call my wife, tell them, and kill me if you want to kill 2 me, but let my family know what's going on. 3 Then he wrote a report telling the people that I was 4 trying, I'm asking him to kill me and this was considered for 5 suicide. Actually, suicide in our religion is totally 6 prohibited. I will never do that, not me, but everything as a 7 Muslim it is prohibited because on the basis that the soul, 8 all the soul that you have it is not our soul, it is property 9 of God. When you get commit suicide you are using property, 10 not the property, you are trying to disgracing against the 11 property of God. 12 So this is not true that I commit suicide. This was 13 the story asking him to kill me. And I think we use this 14 expression in our life many times for if you become angry you 15 say, okay, sometimes even you will say, you kill me. You just 16 kidding. 17 Anyhow, this telling me that they change my case to 18 shift me to another, to another cell which is much worse 19 because they were, they put me in a, they continue awake me 20 and also they put me in a cell with no water, just a bed and a 21 hole for call of nature. And when I want water I will ask 22 they will give me, and I was under 24 hour watching camera. 23 At night it was, I was being watched by the ultra, 24 the infrared, infrared. And the worst prisoner was watching 25 by five watt infrared, but me I was watching by 65 watt which SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 180 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 is 15 times strength of the infrared going on me every night. 2 Even I complain to the doctor that you are sending rays for me 3 every night to the time that I was there. 4 Q. Now, have you completed your answer on that subject? 5 A. (In English) Yes. 6 Q. When was the first time that you were able to contact your 7 embassy and/or your family? 8 A. (In English) Oh, long away after the FBI went, after the 9 German make mandate interrogation with me, I cannot remember. 10 You can, it's not with me now, but what is exist in 11 the paper I think it's true that, but it was, I mean long away 12 after I got first talk with my embassy, and maybe after two, 13 three days I cannot remember, but what is written I think what 14 I read it said it's true, but this happened long away after 15 the FBI went, then I be able to call my family and my embassy. 16 Q. Also, when was the first time that you met with a lawyer? 17 A. (In English) Of course after all this time that the German 18 people even I asked the lawyer they didn't give me a lawyer. 19 The United States they told me, I mean the FBI prosecutor they 20 told me that since we are not in the United States we cannot 21 offer you a lawyer. So I couldn't get a lawyer from either 22 side. And I don't know, I don't know how to get a lawyer. 23 Then hopefully I have friends -- 24 THE COURT: Mr. Salim, the question was -- 25 THE WITNESS: (In English) Yeah. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 181 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 THE COURT: When. That's a date. 2 THE WITNESS: (In English) Yeah. 3 THE COURT: When was the first time you met with a 4 lawyer? That's the question. 5 THE WITNESS: (In English) Also long time that people 6 collect donation and send me a lawyer because the German 7 didn't assign me a lawyer even after I asked for that, so I 8 don't know, maybe after a week or ten days, I cannot remember. 9 This was the first time that the lawyer was trying to see me, 10 but when he asked to -- 11 THE COURT: All right. The question was when and the 12 answer was a week or ten days. 13 THE WITNESS: (In English) I cannot remember, but I 14 mean -- 15 THE COURT: Next question. 16 THE WITNESS: (In English) I mean after the 17 interrogation went. 18 Q. Now, during the detention in Germany, how -- you told us 19 about the conditions of the jail conditions, but how were the 20 conditions with respect to communication with your lawyer 21 during investigation and detention in the prison? 22 A. (In English) The bad condition that I was kept in in 23 Germany I protest for that, and I wrote to the Judge there 24 asking him, please, I'm asking for my animal rights, not for 25 human rights, because I visited zoo in my life and I read many SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 182 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 times, please don't disturb the sleeping animals, and I told 2 him, please give me my animal rights, don't disturb me in the 3 night I want to sleep. 4 MR. GARCIA: Objection, move to strike, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Granted. 6 A. (In English) Then he refuse to. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Salim, okay? Listen to the question. 8 Answer the question. Not why, not the argument. Answer the 9 question. If the question calls for a date or time, tell us 10 the date, tell us the time. If it calls for something else, 11 see if you can answer as directly as possible what the 12 question is, all right? 13 Q. My last question, Mr. Salim -- 14 A. (In English) I asked the prison authority, who inform you 15 to put me in this bad condition? They told me, this is the 16 Judge. Then I asked the Judge. He said, no, it is not me. 17 This is the prison. 18 So I actually there is a third party was giving this 19 order. I don't know who, but at least it is not the judge 20 because he said the prison. And it's not the prison, because 21 think said the Judge. 22 This is the, this was the condition regarding the 23 communication with my lawyer. Of course I got the first 24 meeting with the lawyer, I don't know, maybe a week or ten 25 days, and when he tried to join the German authorities during SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 183 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 my interrogation, they refused, they told him, no; you cannot 2 join this. And I have a letter from him assure that they 3 refused to him to be with me during interrogation. 4 And for communication with him, the guards, the 5 German guards, he brought me a name. I don't know what this 6 name. The guard he told me, you write a copy out asking that 7 please let every communication between me and lawyer go 8 through some man I didn't know. He gave me, he told me write 9 this name. I told him, what's the benefit of this? He said 10 very useful. Your communication will go directly to your 11 lawyer as fast as possible. 12 I said, oh, great. I need to have good communication 13 with my lawyer. After that I understood this was the 14 prosecutor. So everything I was writing to my lawyer was 15 going to prosecutor, the German, and stay with him about ten 16 days, after he very good read it and be happy with it. 17 After that, he will send it to my lawyer. Even many 18 times my lawyer will complain, please send me the 19 communication. Even my strategy, my strategy for defending 20 myself for extradition was everything uncovered to the 21 prosecutor before my lawyer. 22 MR. MC ALLISTER: I don't have any additional 23 questions, your Honor. 24 THE WITNESS: (In English) I have. Are you finished 25 yet? I didn't finish yet. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 184 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 THE COURT: We'll take a five-minute recess. 2 (Recess) 3 (In open court; witness resumed) 4 THE COURT: All right. You may be seated. 5 MR. MC ALLISTER: Your Honor, after having the 6 opportunity to speak to Mr. Salim with your permission I'd 7 like to just take a few more minutes. 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 MR. MC ALLISTER: Thank you, your Honor. 10 Q. Mr. Salim, you hadn't finished your answer I understand 11 concerning the ability to communicate with your lawyer while 12 you were in prison during the German investigation or during 13 the investigation and detention? 14 THE COURT: All that is post-statement. The prison 15 conditions, ability to communicate with the attorney, anything 16 that happened after the Americans had left and after the 17 interrogation ends is not pertinent to the suppression motion. 18 Q. Then one final thing. 19 Mr. Salim, you testified before with respect to a 20 Citibank card. Was there a clarification you wanted to make 21 concerning that? 22 A. (In English) The card I mentioned that I saw Karas taking 23 from my billfolder, actually I saw either him or the FBI 24 agent -- it's difficult now to assure that -- but it is sure 25 that one of them took this card, and I have this, the proof SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 185 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 that the Citibank card is missing from the list of the 2 inventory, even from the German inventory that transmission, 3 but it is with me, and that how they brought, and I have that 4 now. 5 I have all the bank statements how they knew. There 6 is no even a single question about Citibank, but they knew 7 from this card and they brought all this information. 8 Regarding when during the court in Germany I never 9 been in court in Germany. I was just in my cell and receiving 10 the answer of what happened, and they decided for extradition 11 and they give me the order for the extradition, plus the 12 appeal together when they told me that there is extradition. 13 I asked them, I want to appeal. Said, no, this is the 14 extradition, and we will read you another issue for the 15 appeal. 16 MR. GARCIA: Objection, your Honor, move to strike. 17 THE COURT: Granted. There is no question pending 18 now. Anything further? 19 MR. MC ALLISTER: I don't have an additional 20 question. 21 THE WITNESS: (In English) I have, I have lots. 22 Q. Questions? 23 A. (In English)Yeah. I'm still talking about my lawyer. He 24 told me that you will be extradited because the United States 25 is a powerful country. They are -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 186 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 THE COURT: Mr. Salim, now try to listen and try to 2 understand. 3 THE WITNESS: (In English) Okay, forget about that. 4 THE COURT: No. What is relevant here is the events 5 between September 16th and the time you stopped making 6 statements to the either the Germans or to the FBI. Do you 7 understand? That's the time frame, right? 8 Difficulties that you had with your lawyer thereafter 9 have no relevance to this hearing. Conditions in the prison 10 after you stopped making statements are irrelevant to these 11 proceedings. You have a very narrow focus. 12 Now understanding that, is there something else that 13 you want to say? Tell us first what the subject matter is. 14 THE WITNESS: (In English) Now we are here in this 15 hearing and this hearing should be legal, and to be legal I 16 want to talk about testifying. 17 THE COURT: But you can't, sir. Regardless of your 18 views as to what is proper for you to say or not proper for 19 you to say, I have indicated what the scope is. 20 Anything further? 21 Q. Is there anything with respect to what the Judge had told 22 you about in terms of the scope of this hearing that you have 23 not yet said that you wish to say? 24 Now, that's specifically involved, according to the 25 Judge's ruling, what occurred from the time of September 16th SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 187 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 of 1998 until your interrogation ended. 2 Is there anything else that you need to say with 3 respect to your state of mind or with respect to the 4 interrogation? 5 A. (In English) I want to assure that I was deprived from 6 getting my own lawyer. Until now I'm fighting to get my own 7 lawyer. And I deprived. The address is still kept with the 8 prosecutor, the FBI still today. I have the address with 9 them. I have for the inventory, I have two cards they didn't 10 deliver to me, and this card containing the address of lawyer 11 that I asked since 20th of December that I want to contact my 12 lawyer. 13 Prosecutor on the airplane he told me we will give 14 you a lawyer. I told him, no, I have a lawyer in United 15 States and let me contact with him. He said no, he will know 16 where are you by media, and he will show up in the court. 17 THE COURT: That's a matter that you can take up with 18 Magistrate Judge Eaton, if that's the same lawyer that you're 19 talking about. 20 If you have no other questions then, 21 cross-examination. 22 THE WITNESS: (In English) The witnesses, the four 23 witnesses that were brought here they were my witnesses, and 24 we gave the government the name of these witnesses. 25 When they came here they changed after two days SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 188 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 sitting down with the government and they came here to be 2 against me. When I complain with my lawyer, then second day 3 he told me, okay, then they will give me two -- 4 THE COURT: Anything further that you want to tell 5 the Court you put in writing, you give your attorney and he 6 will furnish it to the Court. 7 Mr. Garcia. 8 MR. GARCIA: Judge, I think we can end this. The 9 government is going to offer some exhibits for purposes of 10 this hearing, if I can just have a moment with Mr. McAllister. 11 (Pause) 12 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, I understand there is no 13 objection. So at this point the government would offer 14 Government Exhibit 10, Government Exhibit 15, Government 15 Exhibit 3502-D and DT and Government Exhibit 3502-Q and QT for 16 purposes of the hearing. 17 THE COURT: Received without objection. 18 (Government's Exhibits Exhibit 10, 15, 3502-D and DT 19 and 3502-Q and QT received in evidence) 20 MR. GARCIA: The government has nothing further, 21 Judge. 22 THE COURT: Very well. Mr. McAllister, anything 23 further from the defendant? 24 MR. MC ALLISTER: No, thank you, your Honor. 25 THE WITNESS: (In English) I have, I have. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 189 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 THE COURT: I would like to fairly promptly to get 2 posttrial memoranda, which can be very brief. As I indicated 3 the other day, I'd like to have a time line. I'd like to have 4 a very specific statement, Mr. McAllister, what it is that you 5 wish to have suppressed. What I would like to have is the 6 time line relating to what it is you wish to be suppressed. 7 Today is Friday, the 20th. 8 THE WITNESS: (In English) This hearing is illegal 9 legal because I asked -- 10 THE COURT: This hearing is over. You may step down. 11 (Defendant left the stand) 12 THE DEFENDANT (In English): It's illegal because 13 they prevent from me my lawyer until now. 14 THE COURT: Take that up with -- 15 THE DEFENDANT (In English): I ask to see my lawyer 16 many change, my lawyer, many time. 17 THE COURT: November 3. 18 MR. MC ALLISTER: November 3, your Honor? 19 THE COURT: Yes. That two weeks and a weekend. 20 Please do not embarrass yourself or the Court by asking for an 21 extension of that date. I will notify Magistrate Eaton that 22 except for the filing of posttrial briefs this hearing is 23 concluded. Thank you. 24 OoO 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300 190 0AK1SALH Salim - direct 1 2 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 3 Witness D X RD RX 4 MAMDOUH MAHMUD SALIM.......2 5 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS 6 Exhibit No. Received 7 Exhibits 10, 15, 3502-D, DT and 3502-Q and QT 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 212-805-0300
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