15 February 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of
New York; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 6 of the trial.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm
686
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
4 v. S(7)98CR1023
5 USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,
6 Defendants.
7 ------------------------------x
8
New York, N.Y.
9 February 15, 2001
9:45 a.m.
10
11
12 Before:
13 HON. LEONARD B. SAND,
14 District Judge
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1 APPEARANCES
2 MARY JO WHITE
United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
BY: PATRICK FITZGERALD
4 DAVID KELLEY
KENNETH KARAS
5 PAUL BUTLER
Assistant United States Attorneys
6
7 SAM A. SCHMIDT
JOSHUA DRATEL
8 KRISTIAN K. LARSEN
Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage
9
ANTHONY L. RICCO
10 EDWARD D. WILFORD
CARL J. HERMAN
11 SANDRA A. BABCOCK
Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh
12
FREDRICK H. COHN
13 DAVID P. BAUGH
LAURA GASIOROWSKI
14 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali
15 DAVID STERN
DAVID RUHNKE
16 Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed
17
18 (In open court; jury not present)
19 THE COURT: Good morning. Please be seated. We have
20 a number of matters I'd like to cover. It's not the first
21 item in terms of the agenda, but so I don't forget, so that
22 there is no confusion with respect to the cross-examination of
23 Al Fadl, and I do this because there was a request on behalf
24 of counsel for El Hage for another conference to deal with
25 that, I just want to make sure that there is an understanding
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1 what the ground rules are. I'm aware that some of this
2 relates to some classified material and we're in open court.
3 The cross-examination of the witness with respect to
4 such matters as his understanding of the Koran, of the terms
5 of the bayat and so on, is to be conducted by asking him
6 direct questions without references to any documents not in
7 evidence. If in the opinion of counsel the answer given
8 requires resorting to any documents, including the specially
9 prepared documents which was the subject of our robing room
10 conferences --
11 MR. BAUGH: Excuse me. Your Honor, I don't mean to
12 interrupt. I don't believe there are any Swahili interpreters
13 in the middle group.
14 THE COURT: Excuse me?
15 MR. BAUGH: I don't believe there are any Swahili
16 interpreters in the middle group.
17 (Pause)
18 THE COURT: A sidebar is to be requested. Let me say
19 that I will be very surprised should that occasion arise where
20 you have had the example of two cross-examinations of the
21 witness, including inquiry into those matters and there seemed
22 to be no problem in eliciting the witness' responses. Should
23 that arise, there is to be request for a conference. I will
24 reluctantly, but if necessary, grant that conference.
25 At that conference we will deal with a number of
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1 matters. One, whether there is indeed need for a reference to
2 the document in question. Two, whether the government will
3 take the position that the nature of that inquiry will open
4 the door on the concept of completeness for the government to
5 make reference to other portions of those documents; and
6 three, an opportunity of co-counsel to object as they have
7 indicated in the past they would.
8 That is the protocol which we will follow, if
9 necessary. I say I will be surprised if it is necessary. Is
10 there any question as to the procedure with respect to that
11 matter?
12 MR. DRATEL: No, your Honor, but what we were
13 intending to do, your Honor, is to give you a letter, probably
14 tomorrow, just highlighting what we think if that comes up,
15 just to highlight for the Court what might be.
16 THE COURT: I have a letter request on behalf for an
17 order for a curative instruction with respect to the reading
18 of exhibit 1600T. My understanding of 1600T is that is an
19 exhortation by Bin Laden to his audience to engage in
20 anti-American terrorist activity, and that as evidence of that
21 he cites the vulnerability of the United States as evidenced
22 by, among other things, Somalia. Page 35: Appear before the
23 world promising to retaliate but his promises were only
24 preliminary things for withdrawals. God humiliated you and
25 you left, and this had seriously shown that you're incompetent
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1 and weak.
2 In other words, my understanding of the context of
3 this is a reference by Bin Laden to the victories, the
4 successes achieved as a result of other terrorist acts. He
5 doesn't claim responsibility for these acts, but he cites them
6 as examples of the sort of activity which has achieved
7 success, success being a humiliation and withdrawal by the
8 Americans.
9 Does anybody quarrel with that as a fair
10 characterization of what Bin Laden is doing in those portions
11 of this document?
12 All right. Silence then is acquiescence. In light
13 of that, Mr. Wilford, what is it that you would have me tell
14 this jury?
15 MR. WILFORD: That these statements contained in
16 1600TT are reflective of Bin Laden's state of mind and they
17 are not reflective of the state of mind of Mr. Odeh.
18 THE COURT: Mr. Bin Laden is not an individual. He's
19 not -- he is, you know, we talk about the pyramid and he's the
20 top of the pyramid, right? This is in 1996.
21 MR. WILFORD: Your Honor, the statements that he's
22 making at that time are reflective of his state of mind. What
23 the jury ultimately gets to determine is whether or not Mr.
24 Odeh or any of the other defendants agreed or accepted that,
25 and the statement that is made and the way that the government
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1 suggested it, according to Mr. Karas yesterday, was that it
2 was coming in simply to show what Bin Laden's state of mind
3 was and what he hoped to have people believe.
4 THE COURT: You want me to say that exhibit 1600 is a
5 statement issued by Bin Laden distributed by people working
6 for him which constitutes the declaration of holy war against
7 the Americans. You want me to tell that to the jury? I have
8 no difficulty telling that to the jury. I don't imagine the
9 government would have any difficulty my telling that to the
10 jury.
11 MR. WILFORD: I request what is suggested in my
12 letter.
13 THE COURT: Not for the truth contained therein.
14 MR. WILFORD: Yes. Because the government's proffer
15 of this particular piece of evidence, your Honor, was that
16 it's being offered for the state of mind. I wouldn't want
17 jury to be confused and being misled as to what the document
18 is being offered for, and I don't want confusion to occur
19 later on in terms of argument of this particular document.
20 THE COURT: You go on to say -- I'm reading the last
21 paragraph -- therefore, Mr. Odeh requests that the jury be
22 instructed that Government Exhibit 1600 and 1600T were
23 admitted not for the truth contained therein, but rather to
24 establish what Bin Laden's state of mind was and the message
25 he had for his followers at that time.
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1 MR. WILFORD: Message he had for his followers, not
2 that his followers accepted that message, but that's the
3 message he was putting forth.
4 THE COURT: How does that differ from any other
5 statement made by a coconspirator in furtherance of the
6 conspiracy?
7 MR. WILFORD: Well, there are instances where the
8 statement is more than, it's an agreement between the parties.
9 The statement can be offered as evidence of agreement between
10 the parties. This is not that sort of situation.
11 THE COURT: This is an instruction which he, this is
12 a fatwa which is a declaration of holy war. Exhibit 1600
13 constitutes a statement issued by Bin Laden reflecting his
14 views and the message he had for his followers. You want me
15 to say that?
16 MR. WILFORD: Yes.
17 THE COURT: Any objection to that?
18 MR. KARAS: One moment, your Honor.
19 (Pause)
20 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I would not want the part
21 about message he had to his followers. Also, with respect,
22 it's our position, but, also, if I could just go back to
23 Somalia for a second, because just reading it again and while
24 the specific language in the fatwa does not take credit, if
25 examined in the context of what the government is trying to
693
1 establish with respect to Somalia, it does have an impact on
2 Somalia.
3 If the government is going to put in, has put in
4 through Mr. Al Fadl already, and I anticipate that they will
5 try to put it in through other statements, not only by Bin
6 Laden but also by another alleged coconspirator is that al
7 Qaeda was responsible, so to put that with this it doesn't go
8 very far to determine the statement of responsibility, and
9 that's why it's a factor.
10 Your Honor, also, it can also have an impact to the
11 jury, that the other issues on Somalia in another context and
12 it has an impact on what our judgment of our needs are.
13 THE COURT: It's what he said, right? It's what he
14 told his followers. He said: Look how we humiliated
15 President Clinton and how they withdraw, and this is the sort
16 of thing you should do to achieve the glorious martyrdom that
17 he describes.
18 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, in terms of the actual, I
19 don't know if your Honor is saying that's the instruction or
20 the Somalia part of it now? If you're talking about
21 instruction, my objection to the part about the followers is
22 that it's a fatwa and whatever fatwa is, it is. I don't want
23 to be part of an instruction that it's a fatwa.
24 THE COURT: I really think that for the instruction
25 to be fair and accurate it will not show any interest of the
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1 defendants, because as you say in your letter, Mr. Wilford,
2 this is a message he had for his followers at the time. I
3 don't see any stretching, that would be a fair and accurate
4 appraisal of what this document is would be appropriate.
5 Mr. Cohn, what is your client's views on this matter?
6 MR. COHN: He takes no position.
7 THE COURT: You take no position.
8 MR. COHN: I join the application, your Honor.
9 THE COURT: The application for a curative
10 instruction?
11 MR. COHN: Yes.
12 THE COURT: A curative instruction which will say,
13 among other things, that this is the instruction, the fatwa,
14 the declaration of holy war issued by Bin Laden and
15 constitutes the message he had for his followers at that time.
16 You want that instruction.
17 MR. COHN: Not in those words, your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Those are the words of the request. I
19 have to say this. I do know that there is a very
20 understandable desire on the part of counsel from time to time
21 to get an adverse ruling from the Court for the sake of
22 getting an adverse ruling from the Court.
23 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, just so we're clear, I'm not
24 objecting to the instruction, but I think an instruction that
25 says this is the speaker's state of mind, it is not the state
695
1 of mind of any of the defendants; it is not proof of their
2 state of mind; it is the speaker's state of mind. I think
3 that's consistent with an instruction with respect to any
4 coconspirator hearsay. The coconspirator hearsay is designed
5 to --
6 THE COURT: Are you under the impression that it's
7 appropriate for the Court after every introduction of a
8 coconspirator's statement in furtherance of the conspiracy to
9 give an instruction to the jury?
10 MR. DRATEL: No, but with something as important as
11 this document, with so much prejudicial information I think it
12 is appropriate in this content.
13 THE COURT: Mr. Wilford.
14 MR. WILFORD: Your Honor, also, we agree with
15 Mr. Dratel's statement, not every time, but this particular
16 statement it would be important. If the Court is not inclined
17 to give any instruction, I simply ask that the letter that I
18 submit be made a Court Exhibit.
19 THE COURT: Sure. Court Exhibit 1 of today.
20 (Marked Court Exhibit 1 of 2/15/01)
21 THE COURT: One other matter with respect to the
22 opinions that were filed under seal on Monday, I'm sure our
23 friends in the media would appreciate it if they became
24 available early tomorrow morning so that if you could let us
25 know by 4:30 today, whether there is anything that has to be
696
1 redacted.
2 MR. COHN: Your Honor wanted it in writing so we'll
3 have it for you by then. The changes we have are very minor.
4 MR. KARAS: Judge, just two things with respect to
5 the declaration of jihad. One is on page 35 at the very top
6 there is a word there spelled R-A-Y-E-H-R-I-C-S. As bad as my
7 pronunciation has been I don't think that's a word. I think
8 it's supposed to be media theatrics, not media racist. Page
9 35 at the very top.
10 THE COURT: Media theatrics you think that is. You
11 know there are a few other instances.
12 MR. KARAS: The other thing, your Honor, is when
13 there is a reference to PBUH I've been reliably informed that
14 stands for peace be upon him. That's how we will read it from
15 here on out.
16 THE COURT: Ask them to bring in the jury.
17 (Continued on next page)
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1 (Jury present)
2 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. When
3 we adjourn today we are going to adjourn until Tuesday
4 morning. It's the last of our February long weekends. It's
5 been a while since I reminded you not to read or listen to
6 anything in the media, and this may be a good time for me to
7 remind you again that that is the standing instruction.
8 We are at the point where we are reading the
9 Government Exhibit 1600T, copies of which you should have, and
10 I believe we stopped yesterday at the bottom of page 16.
11 MR. KARAS: Yes, Judge.
12 (Government Exhibit 1600T read)
13 (Continued on next page)
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1 THE COURT: If you would just pass those forward,
2 they will be collected.
3 MR. FITZGERALD: There may be one logistical issue
4 for counsel before the next item, so I wonder if we might take
5 the break earlier.
6 THE COURT: Take a break now?
7 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, Judge.
8 THE COURT: We'll take a five-minute recess.
9 (Jury not present)
10 THE COURT: What is the next proposal?
11 MR. FITZGERALD: If next proposal is we intended to
12 read the 1997 Grand Jury transcript of Wadia El Hage, but I
13 received a call just before I came to Court this morning from
14 Mr. Schmidt -- Mr. Karas received a call -- indicating that he
15 was going to propose some redactions to the Grand Jury
16 testimony and that's why I didn't want to stand up and go
17 there. We haven't received the redactions yet, I don't
18 believe.
19 MR. DRATEL: I'm going to call him. He was working
20 on it while we were here. This is something that just came up
21 yesterday for the first time. So I have -- I mean, I have
22 gone through it myself, but if I could just go downstairs and
23 call him.
24 THE COURT: We'll take a ten-minute recess.
25 MR. FITZGERALD: My sense from the discussion of the
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1 redactions from Mr. Schmidt, but not Mr. Dratel, is I don't
2 think we will be agreeing. So I just wanted to warn your
3 Honor. But we'll try, but I think there's a serious issue.
4 (Recess)
5 (In the robing room; present: Mr. Fitzgeral, Mr.
6 Karas, Mr. Dratel, Mr. Cohen, Mr. Ricco and Mr. Wilford)
7 THE COURT: A big surprise that this is arriving so
8 it's got to be decided two minutes while the jury is waiting.
9 MR. COHN: Do not look at us, your Honor. Call
10 Typhoid Mary.
11 THE COURT: What is the problem?
12 MR. DRATEL: We have some sections of the Grand Jury
13 testimony that we would like redacted.
14 THE COURT: On the theory that?
15 MR. DRATEL: 403, more prejudicial; there's very
16 little probative value, if any, and they are highly
17 prejudicial.
18 THE COURT: And bear no relationship to the perjury
19 counts in the indictment?
20 MR. DRATEL: They are not alleged as perjurious
21 statements in the indictment. I know that some of them --
22 there may be two that are referred to, one I think vaguely and
23 another more specifically in the indictment, and our position
24 is that it's just simply too prejudicial to -- but they're not
25 perjury counts in the indictment. What I'm saying is there
700
1 are a couple I think that are referred to within the broader
2 contours of the conspiracy. The government knows better about
3 that.
4 THE COURT: Are they being offered against all of the
5 defendants or only against El Hage?
6 MR. FITZGERALD: Only against El Hage. As an
7 example, your Honor, one of the things --
8 THE COURT: Even if they are not subject, a subject
9 of a specific count, why would they not be admissible as
10 against him as admissions?
11 MR. DRATEL: Because they're not admissions. He says
12 no. A lot of answers are "no," so it's really the question
13 that's the issue.
14 THE COURT: Give me your best shot.
15 MR. DRATEL: Well, can we go through them. Most of
16 them don't have to do with things that are in the indictment,
17 so I would like to proceed that way. First, I'll read out the
18 section, the government will say whether they agree or not
19 agree, then we will know whether we have to argue.
20 The first one we've resolved, which is page 2 --
21 THE COURT: Just tell me things you haven't resolved.
22 MR. DRATEL: Just for the purpose of knowing what's
23 going to come in and not come in. We've resolved fewer, so
24 it's actually probably easier.
25 Page 2, line 23, through page 3, line 3, there is a
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1 question put to Mr. El Hage about John Draid, D-R-A-I-D. I
2 think the government's agreeing that --
3 THE COURT: Page 2?
4 MR. DRATEL: Bottom of page 2.
5 THE COURT: Oh, yes.
6 MR. DRATEL: Through the top of page 3, and I think
7 the government has agreed that it will stipulate that they're
8 not contending that Mr. El Hage ever used that alias.
9 MR. FITZGERALD: And I'll interrupt the reading by
10 the paralegals to state that at that point in time, if that's
11 easier.
12 THE COURT: Very well. Okay.
13 MR. DRATEL: Page 18, line 13 through 22.
14 THE COURT: Page 18, line 30 --
15 MR. DRATEL: 13 through 22. And that is a photo
16 presented to Mr. El Hage which he does not recognize, but he
17 says -- well, I'm sorry, he does recognize it. He says, "I
18 don't remember the name, but I have seen his picture in the
19 news. He is the one involved in the World Trade Center
20 bombing."
21 I think that's too prejudicial, since he does not
22 know the person other than through the media.
23 THE COURT: But then he continues, he goes through --
24 it's 13 to 22.
25 MR. DRATEL: Right, because the second question is --
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1 THE COURT: What is --
2 MR. FITZGERALD: Judge, I don't see what the
3 prejudice is. He looked at a picture --
4 THE COURT: What's the point? He doesn't remember
5 the name but he's seen his picture.
6 Granted, 13 through 22.
7 MR. FITZGERALD: The problem we're going to have,
8 Judge, since I just got these redactions now, is we've scanned
9 in the Grand Jury testimony so we could do it with the jury
10 and I just got the redactions now, so I don't know what we're
11 going to do about displaying this to the jury.
12 I don't see what the prejudice is to someone saying,
13 I saw a photograph of a guy on T.V. but I don't know him, and
14 we're not going to argue that he in fact knew him.
15 THE COURT: We'll just orally instruct the jury to
16 disregard it.
17 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor --
18 THE COURT: What do you want me to do?
19 MR. DRATEL: The fact that their technology can't
20 accommodate this should not be why we --
21 THE COURT: How many of these are there going to be?
22 Do you have copies of these for the jury?
23 MR. FITZGERALD: We were going to display it on the
24 screen page-by-page.
25 THE COURT: Don't display that page. Just read that
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1 page. I think the fact that the technology shouldn't override
2 the substance is a good point.
3 Next.
4 MR. DRATEL: Page 19, line 11, through page 21, line
5 23.
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 MR. DRATEL: This is with respect to Mr. El Hage's --
8 the question of Mr. El Hage with respect to Sayyid Nosair.
9 This is one of the ones where there is a reference in the
10 indictment not specifically, but there is a reference.
11 The problem we have is just that the Nosair,
12 particularly New York, is so prejudicial because there was
13 involvement in the Kahane murder, and in fact the Kahane
14 murder is mentioned specifically at page 21, line 5.
15 THE COURT: Mr. Wilford is smiling because what he
16 would say if he weren't so deferential to co-counsel is your
17 assumption as to what will be immediately known to the jury is
18 not -- if he went in there and he asked who was Sayyid Nosair,
19 no one would know.
20 MR. COHN: That wasn't why Mr. Wilford was laughing.
21 He was thinking about lunch.
22 THE COURT: The jury is going to be taken to a fancy
23 restaurant. So that's to make up for the day they're being
24 subjected to.
25 Overruled.
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1 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, can we at least take out 21,
2 line 2 through 21, line --
3 THE COURT: Page 21?
4 MR. DRATEL: Yes, page 21, line 2, through page 21,
5 line 16?
6 THE COURT: Yes. How about that?
7 MR. FITZGERALD: Judge --
8 THE COURT: Yes, what is the probative value of his
9 knowing that Nosair is in jail?
10 MR. FITZGERALD: First all, we'll be offering proof
11 at this trial that he visited Nosair in jail, which he didn't
12 admit because he visited Nosair in jail with a man by the name
13 of Elnore, who he denies knowing one of the photographs of the
14 people he says he doesn't know.
15 THE COURT: That's different.
16 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, but that can be involved
17 with lines 1, 2 -- 2 through 4, rather. We don't need 5 and
18 beyond. Where is he now? He's in jail. That satisfies that.
19 MR. FITZGERALD: I think, Judge, what we're now doing
20 is stripping away the facts as to why Mr. El Hage might want
21 to lie.
22 THE COURT: No, overruled. Leave it in, subject to
23 the government's representation that there will be other proof
24 of his visiting him.
25 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, he never lied, he never --
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1 THE COURT: What's next?
2 MR. DRATEL: He did not ask whether he ever visited
3 Nosair and says no, he never asked that question.
4 MR. FITZGERALD: He lied about knowing Elnore, who he
5 visited with, and he asked whether he saw him in New York and
6 he said in Brooklyn. He never mentioned traveling to Rikers
7 Island.
8 THE COURT: Next.
9 MR. DRATEL: The next is page 27, line 25 -- I'm
10 sorry, page 27, line 17 through 25. That's another reference
11 to Nosair as well as to Abouhalima, who is a convicted
12 defendant in the World Trade Center bombing. There are two
13 questions --
14 THE COURT: Overruled. Next.
15 MR. DRATEL: Page 30, line 18 through line 23,
16 there's a question that Mr. El Hage answers "no" which has to
17 do with someone who visited him in the Sudan whose name he
18 didn't remember, and the question is: "Did anyone indicate to
19 you that he was on the run from anyone who was looking for
20 him?
21 "A. No."
22 That would be what we would -- and the next
23 question --
24 THE COURT: Then he says --
25 MR. DRATEL: Yes, then the next question as well.
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1 THE COURT: Then he says, "I thought he was sent by
2 the American Embassy to check on me probably." Was that with
3 respect to the same person?
4 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.
5 MR. DRATEL: Yes. But wait, that's the next page,
6 but the part that we were looking at was before that.
7 THE COURT: Yes.
8 MR. DRATEL: Which is, "Did anyone indicate to you
9 that he was on the run from anyone who was looking for him?"
10 Answer: "No." Next question: "Did anyone indicate he was
11 wanted by any authorities?" Answer: "No."
12 That's the portion that we think is more prejudicial
13 than probative, or there's no probative value.
14 THE COURT: Is the next series of questions with
15 respect to the same person?
16 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.
17 THE COURT: Overruled.
18 MR. DRATEL: Next were page 37, line 5 --
19 THE COURT: How many are there of these?
20 MR. DRATEL: There are about five more.
21 THE COURT: Page 37?
22 MR. DRATEL: Line 5.
23 THE COURT: Yes.
24 MR. DRATEL: Through page 47, line 25. And that is a
25 whole discussion of Mr. El Hage's relationship with Abouhalima
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1 who is a convicted defendant in the World Trade Center
2 bombing, has to do with Mr. El Hage's purchase of weapons from
3 Mr. Abouhalima that he never picked up.
4 This is not charged as a perjury count. None of
5 these are charged as perjury counts. It's very prejudicial.
6 Interspersed within this is discussion of the fact that he's
7 in jail for the World Trade Center bombing and that there's
8 also a question about whether these weapons were for use at
9 the JDL, which Mr. El Hage denies knowing about, and so that's
10 why we would ask that this be deleted.
11 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, among other things,
12 during this conversation where Mr. El Hage is asked about
13 Abouhalima, he first says, "I never had a special discussion
14 with Abouhalima. Then he's confronted with the fact that
15 Abouhalima called him to ship weapons to New York, and then he
16 admits to that. I think it goes to his pattern of showing he
17 can't answer the questions.
18 THE COURT: Overruled.
19 MR. DRATEL: Page 36, line 14 through page 36, line
20 22, which is purely:
21 "Do you know where Abouhalima is today?
22 "He is in jail.
23 "Do you know what he is in jail for?
24 "He is accused of the World Trade Center bombing.
25 "So he is in jail for the World Trade Center bombing?
708
1 "Yes."
2 I don't think there is any reason for that to be in,
3 your Honor, even under the government's theory.
4 MR. FITZGERALD: The government's theory is, knowing
5 that what the person being investigated or being asked about
6 is involved for, he is accused of being involved in the World
7 Trade Center, it's truthful answers.
8 THE COURT: It makes it more -- the conclusion that
9 the answers are deliberately false is enhanced by the
10 notoriousness of the person about whom the questions have been
11 answered.
12 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.
13 THE COURT: Overruled.
14 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, can we get an instruction
15 that the World Trade Center was not part of this case,
16 something like that? You know, that this is not --
17 MR. FITZGERALD: Judge, it already is not part of
18 this case. Already we've had --
19 Hold on.
20 We've had two things happen. In the opening,
21 Mr. Schmidt told the jury that the government --
22 THE COURT: Excuse me. Are the defendants praying
23 now?
24 MR. COHN: No, they're sitting outside waiting.
25 THE COURT: Why don't they pray now?
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1 MR. COHN: Because nobody suggested it until your
2 Honor, in its wisdom.
3 THE COURT: Look, we'll be another five minutes?
4 MR. DRATEL: I think that we will be, yes, another
5 five to ten minutes, I think, just to be --
6 THE COURT: Tell the marshals. Is it all right if I
7 tell the jury, since they are going to be read to again, that
8 the jury should understand that we have adjusted the schedule
9 somewhat to take care of Mr. Schmidt's indisposition?
10 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.
11 MR. DRATEL: We're talking about the World Trade
12 Center. Obviously, without this, we don't need the
13 instruction, but because this is reference number three,
14 basically, to the World Trade Center now, with this and so --
15 THE COURT: So what would your instruction be?
16 MR. DRATEL: That the World Trade Center is not
17 charged in this conspiracy.
18 MR. FITZGERALD: But what it may be relevant to is
19 the perjury case as to whether or not he's telling the truth
20 about the World Trade Center.
21 MR. DRATEL: That's notice charged as part of this
22 conspiracy. No one is being charged with involvement in the
23 World Trade Center bombing.
24 MR. FITZGERALD: Can we also instruct the jury if El
25 Hage lied about people involved in that event, that's relevant
710
1 to the perjury counts?
2 MR. DRATEL: I don't think we need an instruction on
3 that. I think the government can argue that.
4 THE COURT: Suppose I said, apart from possible
5 relevance to the perjury counts against El Hage --
6 MR. DRATEL: I almost would rather have nothing than
7 that.
8 THE COURT: Yes.
9 MR. DRATEL: But just my question is, why does the --
10 the government's going to argue that no one can argue the
11 opposite. In other words, the government can argue that
12 because -- the government can argue that it is relevant and we
13 can't say -- I mean, what can we say in response other than
14 that he didn't perjure himself?
15 MR. FITZGERALD: We are not going to argue that he
16 blew up the World Trade Center. It's reciprocal.
17 MR. DRATEL: Well, but there is one inference, and
18 our inference is nowhere in front of the -- in other words,
19 it's sort of a one-sided inference.
20 THE COURT: I can't say it's irrelevant because it
21 clearly is relevant to the perjury charge.
22 MR. DRATEL: I didn't say irrelevant, that it's
23 irrelevant to say -- the Court has decided it's relevant.
24 THE COURT: You want to say that the bombing of the
25 World Trade Center is not --
711
1 MR. DRATEL: Charged in this case and no defendant
2 is --
3 THE COURT: Is not charged against any defendant in
4 this case?
5 MR. DRATEL: Right.
6 THE COURT: You have any problem with that?
7 MR. FITZGERALD: No.
8 THE COURT: I'll do that first time there is a
9 reference to the World Trade Center.
10 MR. DRATEL: Thank you, your Honor.
11 Okay, the others, the JDL reference at 46, line 2 to
12 line 9 as part of the same piece.
13 THE COURT: Which page are we on now?
14 MR. DRATEL: 46, line 2.
15 THE COURT: Page 46, line 2.
16 MR. DRATEL: Through line 9.
17 THE COURT: "Did Abouhalima ever tell you that the
18 guns were to be used to fight against the Jewish Defense
19 League?
20 "No. He never said that."
21 From lines 1 to where?
22 MR. DRATEL: Through 9, the two questions, the two
23 answers.
24 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, again, the Grand Jury's
25 investigating what the guns were going to be used for in New
712
1 York. We had a good faith basis to ask that question. He
2 said no. That goes to materiality of what he is discussing
3 about these weapons, which he claims, first, he didn't mention
4 in response to Abouhalima; second, he claims he never shipped.
5 THE COURT: No, I sustain the objection to page 46,
6 lines 1 through 9, and we'll follow the same procedure --
7 don't flash that page on the screen.
8 MR. COHN: You want a report, Judge? They can pray
9 during lunch. We don't have to delay at all and it's fine.
10 Judge, don't ask me to be logical. I'm just merely
11 the messenger.
12 THE COURT: But there is a pattern developing about
13 how things are important only if the Court denies them.
14 MR. COHN: Judge --
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 MR. COHN: Prayer is a floating time, depending on
17 the position of the sun.
18 THE COURT: But I have a calendar on my desk with an
19 explanation from the imam.
20 Let's go on.
21 MR. DRATEL: The next one we have agreed on, I think,
22 which is --
23 THE COURT: Fine.
24 MR. DRATEL: Can I say what the agreement is so we're
25 clear that the government will state during the course of the
713
1 deposition, page 56 through 61, which discusses the murder of
2 Mustafa Shalabi that there's no contention that Mr. El Hage
3 was involved in any way.
4 THE COURT: And the government will say that?
5 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.
6 THE COURT: Very well. Okay.
7 MR. DRATEL: The next is a large section, page 72,
8 line 23, to page 90, line 15, which involves the murder of an
9 imam in Tucson by the name of Rashad Khalifa.
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 MR. DRATEL: And it's not charged in the perjury
12 count. The government's position is that it is relevant
13 because they are going to contend that the same person who
14 Mr. El Hage visited Nosair with is the same person who visited
15 Mr. El Hage in Tucson.
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 MR. DRATEL: Well prior to this murder. So the
18 question is really no connection between the murder and this
19 visit, other than what the government is going to try to draw
20 an inference without saying, because there have been people
21 who have been charged with this murder, with conspiring to
22 murder. They live in Colorado in their --
23 THE COURT: What is the relevance of the murder?
24 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, specifically, the Grand
25 Jury did charge that one of the material facts for the Grand
714
1 Jury to determine, and I'll read from the indictment at page
2 108, subsection 6: "The nature of the role, if any, played by
3 defendant Wadih El Hage in the murder of Rashed Khalifa in
4 Tucson, Arizona in 1990 and the identity of the person in from
5 New York who visited Wadih El Hage in Tucson prior to the
6 murder."
7 It's the government's contention that the person who
8 came from New York, who Mr. El Hage would lie about after
9 being shown this photograph and whom he would then visit
10 Nosair in jail with in 1991, was involved in the surveillance
11 prefatory to a murder, not necessarily the murder. Mr. El
12 Hage lied about it, explains why he lied about it. It goes
13 directly to materiality and was charged in the indictment.
14 THE COURT: Overruled.
15 MR. DRATEL: Okay. I just want to say I don't think
16 the government is going to have any proof that there's any
17 connection between this visit and the murder. It's just, I
18 think, an unfair inference that's totally prejudicial to
19 Mr. El Hage.
20 THE COURT: My ruling is made on the representation
21 of the government, and if there should be no -- well, but it's
22 what the Grand Jury was inquiring into which defines what was
23 material for purposes of their inquiry.
24 Overruled. Let's move on.
25 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, also within that I think we
715
1 have an agreement that there's part of page 85 that will go
2 out.
3 You don't agree?
4 MR. FITZGERALD: No.
5 MR. DRATEL: I thought you were agreeing.
6 MR. FITZGERALD: I wrote down I understood your
7 argument.
8 MR. DRATEL: Page 58, lines 22 to 24, which is really
9 just exchange between Mr. Fitzgerald and Mr. El Hage.
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I think that's extremely
12 prejudicial. That has no relevance to anything.
13 THE COURT: Overruled.
14 MR. DRATEL: There's also within that section, page
15 81, line 15 -- I guess I missed this one. It has to do with
16 Mr. El Hage possessing a weapon in Texas and it has nothing to
17 do with that issue. It just is within that. It says, "Do you
18 have a gun?" "Yes, I have a shotgun."
19 THE COURT: A shotgun in Tucson. What is the
20 significance of that?
21 MR. FITZGERALD: Judge, a lot of -- this is the first
22 time I'm hearing this one.
23 MR. DRATEL: I forgot to mention it. It's on the
24 same line. I'm sorry.
25 MR. FITZGERALD: He asked him if he had a gun in the
716
1 house, he had a shotgun. I don't --
2 THE COURT: Take it out. Take it out and don't
3 screen that page.
4 MR. DRATEL: Page 107, line 2 through 4.
5 THE COURT: Page 107,lines which?
6 MR. DRATEL: 2 through 4. That's again an issue as
7 to why a particular defendant is in jail. I don't know that
8 the government is even alleging that he's lying about this
9 person Azmarai, and the question is why that's relevant. Just
10 the fact that he's in jail and he's in jail for the World
11 Trade Center.
12 THE COURT: We're going to have the World Trade
13 Center stipulation that will cover.
14 MR. DRATEL: Then page 115, line 5.
15 THE COURT: 115?
16 MR. DRATEL: Line 5.
17 THE COURT: Line 5.
18 MR. DRATEL: Through 116, line 22.
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 MR. DRATEL: Which is a recap by Mr. Fitzgerald of a
21 variety of different situations that involve fatalities and
22 then try put Mr. El Hage connected with them, and it's really
23 like a summation, it's really argument, your Honor. It's a
24 series of questions about that, recap of earlier testimony,
25 and it's just -- it's unnecessary. It's all there already.
717
1 It's prejudicial, sort of summation.
2 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, a couple of things.
3 First of all, it is telling the witness directly what he is
4 saying and giving him an opportunity to give a truthful
5 answer, which is he was asked if he ever thought he was being
6 part of a terrorist group, and he said no. Even at the end of
7 the Grand Jury testimony he's asked if there is a single
8 answer he wanted to change anywhere in his testimony, and I
9 think it's important when --
10 THE COURT: Yes, the objection is overruled. I'm
11 cutting you off because I think what you are about to say is
12 clear.
13 You are the questioner?
14 MR. FITZGERALD: That's been redacted.
15 THE COURT: That's been redacted. That will not be
16 disclosed to the jury.
17 MR. DRATEL: One additional one, page 120, line 26.
18 THE COURT: 120, line?
19 MR. DRATEL: 26, through 122, line 8.
20 THE COURT: To line 8, that he heard about -- what's
21 the significance of that?
22 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, we had offered a
23 stipulation that no one in the case was charged with
24 participating in the Mubarak assassination.
25 MR. DRATEL: Okay. I guess I forgot.
718
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.
3 THE COURT: All right.
4 MR. FITZGERALD: So we can do it at the same point in
5 time.
6 THE COURT: Is that it?
7 MR. DRATEL: That's it.
8 THE COURT: And I will tell the jury that the reason
9 why they're having a day of reading is because we're working
10 around Mr. Schmidt's unavailability. And this will take how
11 long?
12 MR. FITZGERALD: Take the balance of the day.
13 THE COURT: The balance of the day.
14 MR. FITZGERALD: It's 183 pages. Sans redaction,
15 175.
16 MR. DRATEL: And if you granted more, it would be
17 shorter.
18 (In open court; jury present)
19 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, two things: One is
20 I want to explain the longer recess we had and the fact that
21 there's going to be some more reading and explain that,
22 although we made a commitment to try not to waste your time,
23 we have had to do a little reshuffling because of
24 Mr. Schmidt's flu. So please understand why that has taken
25 place, and we are doing every effort, making every effort not
719
1 to waste your time.
2 I'm told that the next order of business will be the
3 reading of sections of the questioning of the defendant El
4 Hage before the Grand Jury, which is relevant to the counts in
5 the indictment naming the defendant El Hage and accusing him
6 of committing perjury before the Grand Jury.
7 These are the perjury counts in the indictment which
8 are Counts 287 to 308, and understand, then, this testimony is
9 admissible and is relevant only to the defendant El Hage. I
10 think that's the first occasion in which I have advised you
11 that testimony is not being received, is not admissible for
12 all purposes, but for a limited purpose, the limited purpose
13 being with respect to the defendant El Hage and with respect
14 to the perjury counts of the indictment, 287 through 305.
15 I'm also handed a stipulation which says that if
16 called as a witness -- remember I told you there are two types
17 of stipulations, one is as to facts and the other is as to
18 what a witness would say if the witness were called, and this
19 stipulation is that, if called as a witness to testify,
20 Careyann Rosenblatt, an official Grand Jury reporter for the
21 Southern District of New York, would testify that Exhibit 400
22 is a true and accurate transcription of the proceedings before
23 a Grand Jury in the Southern District of New York, which took
24 place on September 24, 1997.
25 It is further stipulated and agreed that Government's
720
1 401, 402, 403A through 403A5, 404 through 410 are copies of
2 the Grand Jury Exhibits 1 through 10 referenced in that
3 testimony.
4 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Judge. At this time the
5 government would just offer those exhibits referred to in the
6 Grand Jury testimony with the exception that to the extent
7 photographs are looked at but not recognized, we will not
8 offer those exhibits.
9 THE COURT: Very well.
10 MR. FITZGERALD: So, for the record, that would be
11 Exhibits 401, 402, and 403D, H, L, M, N, O, P, Q, Z, AE and
12 AG, and as to those exhibits just the specific photographs are
13 referred to, which has page 2 on it, and then Government
14 Exhibit 405, 409 and 410.
15 (Government Exhibits 401, 402, and 403D, H, L, M, N,
16 O, P, Q, Z, AE and AG, and 405, 409 and 410 received in
17 evidence)
18 MR. FITZGERALD: And we will proceed by having
19 paralegal specialist Abigale Sada and Gerrard Francisco will
20 read the transcript into the record, with Ms. Sada doing the
21 introduction or time and the questions by the questioner, and
22 Mr. Francisco will provide the answers. And there are also
23 three other stipulations between the government and counsel
24 for El Hage which I will interrupt the reading to recite that
25 stipulation at the appropriate point.
721
1 THE COURT: All right. Understand, ladies and
2 gentlemen, that the answers are being given by a paralegal.
3 His demeanor, his inflexion is irrelevant. It's simply to
4 speed the process that is taking place.
5 Very well, you may proceed to do that.
6 MR. FITZGERALD: Also, Judge, we'll be displaying the
7 pages on the screen, with the exception of I think three pages
8 for which there had to be a change. So there will be three
9 pages that won't be displayed on the screen, but otherwise the
10 jury will be able to follow along.
11 MR. FRANCISCO: United States Grand Jury, Southern
12 District of New York, In Re: John Doe, May 1996, additional,
13 United States Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, New York,
14 10007. September 24, 1997, 11:04 a.m. Appearance by
15 assistant United States attorney, whose name is redacted,
16 Careyann Rosenblatt, RPR, CSR, RMR, Acting Grand Jury
17 Reporter.
18 "Colloquy precedes.
19 "Time noted: 11:06 a.m.
20 "Witness enters room.
21 "WADIH EL HAGE, called as witness,
22 "Having been first duly sworn by The
23 "Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined
24 "And testified as follows:
25 "EXAMINATION
722
1 "BY ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY:
2 "Q. Mr. El Hage, can you tell the Grand Jury for the record
3 what your name is and please spell it.
4 "A. It is Wadih, W-A-D-I-H, and last name is El Hage, E-L
5 H-A-G-E.
6 "Q. Legally did you have a different name at a different time
7 in your life other than Wadih El Hage?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. You have to speak up so everyone can hear you.
10 "A. Okay.
11 "Q. Were you ever known as John Draid, D-R-A-I-D?
12 "A. No.
13 "Q. Do you know anyone by the name of John Draid, D-R-A-I-D?
14 "A. No."
15 THE COURT: Just a moment.
16 MR. FITZGERALD: There's a stipulation that the
17 government does not contend that Wadih El Hage ever used the
18 name John Draid.
19 THE COURT: Very well.
20 "Q. I would like to begin by advising you of what your rights
21 are before the Grand Jury. And for the record, my name is"
22 (redacted) "and I am an assistant U.S. attorney here in the
23 Southern District of New York.
24 "This Grand Jury is investigating violations of Title
25 18, United States Code, Sections 371, 844, 921, 1958, 1959 and
723
1 2332. I will tell you what those numbers mean.
2 "Section 371 is a conspiracy statute. Section 844
3 relates to bombings of buildings in interstate commerce.
4 "Section 921 relates to transportation of weapons.
5 "Section 1958 relates to interstate and foreign
6 travel in aid of racketeering activity.
7 "1959 relates to murders and violent crimes in aid of
8 racketeering activity. And Section 2332 and the ones that
9 follow relate to terrorism.
10 "Those are the charges that this grand jury generally
11 is investigating.
12 "In the course of its investigation, if the Grand
13 Jury uncovers evidence of other alleged illegal activity, it
14 also has the power to charge or investigate those other
15 federal crimes.
16 "Do you understand that general nature of the
17 investigation? You have to say yes or no for the record.
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. You have a Constitutional right to refuse to answer any
20 questions if a truthful answer would tend to incriminate you
21 personally.
22 "Do you understand that right?
23 "A. I do.
24 "Q. And if you choose to answer a question, any statement
25 that you do make can be used against you in a court of law or
724
1 other legal proceeding.
2 Do you understand that?
3 "A. Yes.
4 "Q. If you decide to answer any questions, you may stop
5 answering at any time and invoke your privilege against
6 self-incrimination.
7 "Do you understand that?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. You have a right to consult with an attorney if you wish.
10 "Do you understand that?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. And while you do not have the right to have a lawyer
13 present in the Grand Jury room, the Grand Jury would permit
14 you, if you wished, a reasonable opportunity to step outside
15 the Grand Jury room and consult with an attorney if you so
16 desire.
17 "Do you understand that?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. And you understand that if you could not afford an
20 attorney, you could apply to the Court to have an attorney
21 appointed for you.
22 "Do you understand that?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. For the record, today you are not represented by an
25 attorney?
725
1 "A. No.
2 "Q. Now, the testimony that you are about to give, if you
3 choose to do so, will be under oath. That means that the
4 Grand Jury has the power to indict you for perjury if it finds
5 that you have willfully testified falsely as to any material
6 or important fact.
7 "Do you understand that?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. And the maximum penalty for each count of perjury is five
10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine.
11 "Do you understand that?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. And you should also understand that if you tell multiple
14 false statements, if you tell more than one lie in the Grand
15 Jury, you could be charged with more than one count and get
16 higher penalties?
17 "Do you understand that?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. You should also understand that based upon your
20 association and conduct with others, that your conduct is also
21 being investigated by this Grand Jury for possible violations
22 of criminal law.
23 "Do you understand that?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. Do you understand your rights?
726
1 "A. Yes, I do.
2 "Q. Now, what I would like to do if you are willing to answer
3 questions, I would like you to begin by telling the jury where
4 you were born?
5 "A. I was born in Lebanon.
6 "Q. In what year?
7 "A. 1960.
8 "Q. Can you tell the jury when you left Lebanon and where you
9 went?
10 "A. When I was two years old I left Lebanon to Kuwait with my
11 parents.
12 "Q. And did there come a time when you left Kuwait?
13 "A. The year?
14 "Q. Yes.
15 "A. 1978.
16 "Q. When you left Kuwait in 1978, where did you go to?
17 "A. I came to the states.
18 "Q. What particular state?
19 "A. Louisiana.
20 "Q. From 1978, how long did you stay in Louisiana?
21 "A. Until 1983.
22 "Q. And where did you go in 1983?
23 "A. To Pakistan.
24 "Q. And where in Pakistan?
25 "A. Peshawar.
727
1 "Q. And what did you do in Peshawar?
2 "A. I worked with the Muslim World League helping the
3 refugees, Afghanistan refugees.
4 "Q. For how long did you stay in Peshawar working with the
5 Muslim World League helping Afghani refugees?
6 "A. Until the end of '94 -- '84. Until the end of '84.
7 "Q. And where did you go at the end of '84?
8 "A. I came back in the States.
9 "Q. To what state?
10 "A. Louisiana.
11 "Q. Just focusing on your first trip to Peshawar in 1983, did
12 you have any contact at that time with a person by the name of
13 Sheik Abdullah Azzam, A-Z-Z-A-M?
14 "A. Yes, I met him in Peshawar.
15 "Q. Did you work with him at the Muslim World League, with
16 shake Abdullah Azzam at that time?
17 "A. No, he wasn't working with Muslim World League.
18 "Q. Did you engage in any firearms training in Peshawar
19 during the 1983, 1984 time period?
20 "A. No, I didn't.
21 "Q. Did you carry a weapon?
22 "A. Just carried a weapon, yes, for the interest of carrying
23 a weapon.
24 "Q. Did you ever travel into Afghanistan during that time
25 period?
728
1 "A. No.
2 "Q. So you stayed in the country of Pakistan at all times?
3 "A. Yes.
4 "Q. Now, what did you do when you got back to Louisiana in
5 1984?
6 "A. I continued my studies in the university.
7 "Q. Which university was that in Louisiana?
8 "A. The University of Southwestern Louisiana.
9 "Q. Did you get a degree from that school?
10 "A. Yes.
11 "Q. When did you get the degree?
12 A. In 1986.
13 "Q. From '84, once you returned to Louisiana in 1984, did
14 there come a time when you left Louisiana? Did you go
15 somewhere else?
16 "A. In the States?
17 "Q. Yes.
18 "A. Yes, I did.
19 "Q. Where did you go?
20 "A. To Arizona.
21 "Q. What year did you go to Arizona?
22 "A. In '95.
23 "Q. '95 or '85?
24 "A. '85, I am sorry.
25 "Q. How long did you stay in Arizona?
729
1 "A. For about two weeks.
2 "Q. The purpose of your trip to Arizona was?
3 "A. To get married.
4 "Q. And after you got married in Arizona, where did you go?
5 "A. I went back to Louisiana.
6 "Q. Did there come a time when you left Louisiana again? Did
7 you go somewhere else?
8 "A. I visited a few other states.
9 "Q. Did you go back to Pakistan at any time after 1985?
10 "A. Yes, in 1986.
11 "Q. When you went to Pakistan in 1986, where in Pakistan did
12 you go?
13 "A. It was the town of Q-U-E-T-T-A, Quetta.
14 "Q. When you went to Quetta, what did you do?
15 "A. I worked with Mektab al Khidemat.
16 "Q. M-E-K-T-A-B A-L K-H-I-D-E-M-A-T.
17 For how long did you work for Mektab al Khidemat?
18 "A. Almost a year.
19 "Q. Does Mektab al Khidemat in Arabic mean Services Office?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. When you worked for the Services Office for a year, who
22 did you work for? Who was your boss?
23 "A. Well, the boss for Mektab al Khidemat in all Pakistan was
24 Sheik Abdullah Azzam.
25 "Q. Did you work directly for Sheik Abdullah Azzam or did you
730
1 work for someone else?
2 "A. My immediate bows?
3 "Q. Yes.
4 "A. No, it was someone else.
5 "Q. Who was he?
6 "A. His name is Abu Jandal.
7 "Q. Abu, spell the last name.
8 "A. J-A-N-D-A-L.
9 "Q. Abu Jandal?
10 "A. Yes.
11 "Q. The word Abu means father of?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. Do you know what his real legal name was besides Abu
14 Jandal?
15 "A. No.
16 "Q. Was it is a practice in Pakistan and Afghanistan to use
17 Abu names rather than real names?
18 "A. Yes, it is a practice in many Arab countries.
19 "Q. When you lived in Arizona, did you have an Abu name?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. Were you referred to as Abu Abdullah?
22 "A. Yes, after I had my child.
23 "Q. And your child's name was Abdullah?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. Sometimes people would call you Abu Abdullah?
731
1 "A. Yes.
2 "Q. Are you also known as Abu al Sabbur, A-B-U, separate word
3 A-L, separate word S-A-B-B-U-R?
4 "A. Yes.
5 "Q. And also referred to as The Engineer, Abu al Sabbur?
6 "A. Some people might call me. Whoever knew that I studied
7 and had a degree in the States, they would call me engineer,
8 but it wasn't a famous name.
9 "Q. Now, when did you leave -- in the period of 1986 when you
10 were working for the Services Office, did you have any contact
11 with Usama Bin Laden?
12 "A. He visited once. I saw him. We didn't have any talks.
13 I just saw him coming to the office and talking to the boss
14 there.
15 "Q. Was that the first time you ever saw Usama Bin Laden?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. Did you know if he had any relationship with the Mektab
18 al Khidemat, the Services Office, or Sheik Abdullah Azzam at
19 that time?
20 "A. Yes, I knew he was the financier for Mektab al Khidemat.
21 "Q. You understood Usama Bin Laden was providing the money to
22 Mektab al Khidemat?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. During the time in 1986 when you were in Pakistan, did
25 you engage in any firearms training?
732
1 "A. No.
2 "Q. Did you engage in the shooting of any firearms?
3 "A. No.
4 "Q. Did you carry a weapon?
5 "A. Probably once or twice for the same reason of being
6 interested in carrying a gun or -- a gun.
7 "Q. Why would you be interested in carrying a gun? What was
8 the reason?
9 "A. Just, I don't know, a hobby or something like that. Many
10 people like to carry guns.
11 "Q. What kind of gun did you carry?
12 "A. An AK-47.
13 "Q. An AK-47.
14 'Did you ever travel into Afghanistan when you were
15 in Pakistan in the 1986, 1987 period?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. When you traveled into Afghanistan there was a war going
18 on, correct?
19 "A. Right.
20 "Q. And the war was against the Russians?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. Did you fight in that war?
23 "A. No.
24 "Q. Did you carry a gun when you went into Afghanistan during
25 wartime?
733
1 "A. There was a time once or twice when I carried a gun.
2 "Q. Were you ever trained how to use a rocket-propelled
3 grenade launcher, RPG?
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. Have you seen an RPG?
6 "A. Yes, I have.
7 "Q. Were you ever shot at while you were in Pakistan or
8 Afghanistan?
9 "A. Was I shot at? No.
10 "Q. Did you ever shoot at anyone?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. During the time that you were in Pakistan in 1986, 1987,
13 did you ever meet a person by the name of Azmarai,
14 A-Z-M-A-R-A-I?
15 "A. '86, '87, no.
16 "Q. Now I am going to show you what has been marked for
17 identification as Grand Jury Exhibit 3, the report. I will
18 describe it so the record won't be confused later.
19 "It has two Grand Jury exhibit stickers. One of them
20 says 9 on it without a date. That is from a prior use. And
21 for today I put a sticker on it, Grand Jury Exhibit 3 with
22 today's date, which I believe is September 24, 1997.
23 "It has pictures in it numbered 1 through 77, and on
24 the back page of 77 an unnumbered picture which has more than
25 one person in it. So there should be a total of besides the
734
1 pictures numbered 1 through 77 on yellow Post-Its, there is
2 one additional photograph on the back of page 77 showing
3 multiple males carrying weapons.
4 "What I am going to ask you to do, Mr. El Hage, is to
5 look through this book, I think you have seen it before, and
6 just look at each number, read the number out loud and tell
7 the Grand Jury whether or not you recognize the person in the
8 picture, and when you have done that, we will go back and ask
9 you particular questions about who the people are and how it
10 is that you know them.
11 "Do you understand that?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. Please take whatever time you need.
14 "(Witness perusing exhibit.)
15 "Q. If I could ask you to do one page at a time and read out
16 the number. If you recognize, say No. 1, I recognize him, or
17 No. 1, I don't recognize him, so we are clear on the record
18 who you know and don't know.
19 "A. No. 1, I don't recognize.
20 "No. 2, I don't recognize.
21 "No. 3, I don't recognize.
22 "No. 4, I don't recognize.
23 "No. 5, I don't recognize.
24 "No. 6, I don't recognize.
25 "No. 7, I don't recognize.
735
1 "No. 8, I recognize.
2 "Q. And before you go on, No. 8, what, do you know the name
3 of the person pictured in No. 8?
4 "A. He is Azmarai.
5 "Q. Okay. We will come back to that. Continue with No. 9.
6 "A. No. 9, I don't recognize.
7 "No. 10, I don't recognize.
8 "No. 11, I don't recognize.
9 "12, I don't recognize.
10 "13, I don't recognize.
11 "14, I don't recognize.
12 "15, I recognize.
13 "Q. And what is the name of the person you recognize in No.
14 15?
15 "A. Zindani.
16 "Q. Do you know Zindani's first name?
17 "A. I don't remember.
18 "Q. Z-I-N-D-A-N-I.
19 "Continue with No. 16.
20 "A. I don't recognize.
21 "17, I don't recognize.
22 "18, I don't recognize.
23 "19, I don't recognize.
24 "20, I don't recognize.
25 "21, I don't recognize.
736
1 "22, I don't recognize.
2 "23, I recognize.
3 "Q. Okay."
4 MR. FRANCISCO: Lines 13 through 22 are redacted.
5 "Q. And when you went to Kuwait, what high school did you go
6 to?
7 "A. The Ahmadi High School.
8 "Q. Spell the name of your high school.
9 "A. A-H-M-A-D-I.
10 "Q. What years did you attend the Ahmadi High School in
11 Kuwait?
12 "A. '74 through '78, four years.
13 "Q. The person in No. 23, did you ever see that person when
14 you were in Kuwait?
15 "A. No.
16 "Q. Continue with No. 24.
17 "A. I don't recognize.
18 "25, I do recognize.
19 "Q. Who is No. 25?
20 "A. He is Sayyid Nosair.
21 "Q. Sayyid Nosair. Have you met Sayyid Nosair in person?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. Where did you meet Sayyid Nosair in person?
24 "A. At the Services Office here in New York.
25 "Q. The branch office of Mektab al Khidemat, the Service
737
1 Office in New York?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. What year did you meet Sayyid Nosair there?
4 "A. I can't recall. I came here about three, four times. I
5 can't recall exactly which year was it. I can find out.
6 "Q. How would you be able to find out? What would help your
7 memory?
8 "A. From my previous passport entrance and exit of the
9 States, because I just came here.
10 "A JUROR: Are we supposed to hear him?
11 "ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY: Yes.
12 "A. I came to this office when we were traveling to the
13 States from Pakistan back to this office, so it was the only
14 time I met him. It was one of those visits.
15 "Q. Do you know who else was present in the room when you met
16 Sayyid Nosair?
17 "A. I believe Mustafa Shalabi. Yes.
18 "Q. Anyone else you recall?
19 "A. Maybe Zindani, maybe Abouohalima. Those are the people I
20 met here in New York. I can't recall if they were all at the
21 same time or different times.
22 "Q. But the people you met in New York included Sayyid
23 Nosair, Zindani, Abouhalima and Shalabi?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. Do you know where Mr. Sayyid Nosair is today?
738
1 "A. He is in jail.
2 "Q. Do you know what he is in jail for?
3 "A. For a crime, killing.
4 "Q. Killing whom?
5 "A. Kahane.
6 "Q. Is that the Rabbi Meyer Kahane?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. Did you ever discuss with either Zindani and Shalabi or
9 Abouhalima whether Sayyid Nosair killed Kahane?
10 "A. No, never.
11 "Q. How do you know Nosair killed Kahane?
12 "A. I heard it in the news.
13 "Q. Did you ever travel to firearms training with any of the
14 people in New York?
15 "A. No.
16 "Q. Did you ever shoot a gun at a range or anywhere else in
17 New York, New Jersey, or Connecticut?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Why don't you continue with picture No. 26.
20 "A. I don't recognize.
21 "Q. Sorry?
22 "A. 26, I don't.
23 "Q. Have you ever seen that person before in the newspaper or
24 magazines?
25 "A. I don't recall.
739
1 "Q. Does he look like anyone you know?
2 "A. Maybe Sheik, the blind Sheik, Omar Abdel Rahman?
3 "Q. So he looks like the blind Sheik, Sheik Omar Abdel
4 Rahman?
5 "A. Close.
6 "Q. Have you personally ever met with Sheik Omar Abdel
7 Rahman?
8 "A. Yes, at the mosque here in New York.
9 "Q. How many times?
10 "A. Probably twice at the prayers.
11 "Q. Have you ever met with the Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman
12 outside of New York?
13 "A. No.
14 "Q. At the mosque you met Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, what was
15 the name of the mosque?
16 "A. Al Farouq.
17 "Q. F-A-R-O-U-Q?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. Is that located in Brooklyn?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. Have you ever had any personal conversations between you
22 and Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman?
23 "A. No.
24 "Q. You have never seen him outside of New York?
25 "A. No, never.
740
1 "Q. You never saw him in Afghanistan?
2 "A. No.
3 "Q. Why don't you continue with No. 27.
4 "A. I don't.
5 "28, I don't recognize.
6 "29, I have seen the face, but I can't remember where
7 or when or how.
8 "Q. Okay. Do you know if you ever saw that face in the New
9 York area?
10 "A. It could be. I can't remember exactly where, but I
11 remember seeing this face once before.
12 "Q. Do you know who might have been with that face when you
13 saw it?
14 "A. Can't remember.
15 "Q. One more question. Do you ever recall seeing that person
16 on a trip to Saudi Arabia?
17 "A. No.
18 "Q. Continue on with No. 30.
19 "A. No. 30, I recognize.
20 "Q. And who do you recognize No. 30 to be?
21 "A. I don't know the name, but I have seen him also at
22 Services Office here in New York.
23 "Q. Okay. Have you ever spoken to him, as far as you know?
24 "A. Once said hi, that's all.
25 "Q. Have you ever seen the person pictured in No. 30 outside
741
1 of the New York State area?
2 "A. No.
3 "Q. Have you ever conducted any business with the person
4 depicted in No. 30?
5 "A. No.
6 "Q. No. 31?
7 "A. I don't recognize.
8 "Q. No. 32?
9 "A. I don't recognize.
10 "Q. No. 33?
11 "A. I do.
12 "Q. Where did you see the person pictured in photo No. 33?
13 "A. In Sudan.
14 "Q. And when in Sudan?
15 "A. In 19 -- either '93 or '94.
16 "Q. And do you know if you ever saw the person prior to that
17 time anywhere else in the world?
18 "A. No, I don't remember.
19 "Q. Do you remember the name of that person pictured in No.
20 33?
21 "A. Could be Abu Malik.
22 "Q. Could be Abu Malik, A-B-U, M-A-L-I-K?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. But you are not sure?
25 "A. Not sure.
742
1 "Q. The person depicted in No. 33, do you know what country
2 he is a citizen of?
3 "A. He is American.
4 "Q. So you saw an American citizen in the Sudan, the person
5 in No. 33, in 1993 or 1994?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Where in the Sudan did you see him?
8 "A. In Khartoum.
9 "Q. Where in Khartoum?
10 "A. At the company I used to work at.
11 "Q. And the name of that company was?
12 "A. Taba.
13 "Q. T-A-B-A?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. Taba Investments?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. Who owned Taba Investments?
18 "A. Usama Bin Laden.
19 "Q. Where was the Taba Investments office in Khartoum?
20 "A. In town.
21 "Q. Was it in the Riyadh section of town?
22 "A. No, not Riyadh section. I lived in the Riyadh section.
23 It is a famous street, I can't remember the name of it.
24 "Q. Do you remember the name of the building?
25 "A. It was a house. It was a house turned into an office.
743
1 "Q. Tell the Grand Jury what you recall about the time you
2 saw the person pictured in No. 33 being in the Sudan at the
3 office at Taba Investments.
4 "A. Excuse me?
5 "Q. What happened at the time you saw him in the Sudan? What
6 was he doing there?
7 "A. I don't know what was he doing, but when he talked to me,
8 he said I am American, I am from New York, so I invited him to
9 my house, and we had lunch together.
10 "Q. Did he tell you whether or not he was ever in the
11 American military?
12 "A. I don't recall.
13 "Q. Did he look like he was fit and trim?
14 "A. Yes. I think he was martial art. He had training.
15 "Q. Training in martial arts?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. Do you know if he had ever been to Afghanistan?
18 "A. I don't recall.
19 "Q. And do you know if he had ever been to Pakistan?
20 "A. I don't know, I don't recall.
21 "Q. Do you know whether or not the person depicted in No. 33
22 knew Abouhalima from New York?
23 "A. I don't know.
24 "Q. Do you know whether or not the person depicted in No. 33
25 knew Nosair from New York?
744
1 "A. I don't know.
2 "Q. Do you know if he knew Shalabi from New York?
3 "A. No, I don't know.
4 "Q. Now, you were in the Sudan in 1993 and 1994 living there?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. And you knew three or four people from New York --
7 correct? -- from the Services Office?
8 "A. In Sudan?
9 "Q. When you were in New York you had met three or four
10 people?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. And this fellow shows up from New York as an American
13 citizen, which is unusual in the Sudan, correct?
14 "A. For me.
15 "Q. Did you ask him about the people you knew in New York
16 from the mosque?
17 "A. No, I don't remember asking him, no.
18 "Q. You mentioned an Abu Malik. You are not sure whether
19 that his name or not?
20 "A. Right.
21 "Q. The person you remember as Abu Malik, had Abu Malik been
22 to Afghanistan?
23 "A. Abu Malik, I remember someone called Abu Malik, but I
24 can't remember his picture how he looked like.
25 "Q. What did Abu Malik do in Afghanistan?
745
1 "A. He was with the mujahadeen.
2 "Q. And the mujahadeen were the people fighting the Russians?
3 "A. Yes.
4 "Q. They carried guns and RPG's and shot at the Russian
5 soldiers?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. What did the person named Abu Malik do for the
8 mujahadeen?
9 "A. I met him in Peshawar, and he told me he was with the
10 mujahadeen.
11 "Q. In what year?
12 "A. In '89.
13 "Q. Did you ever see Abu Malik again after that?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. The person in No. 33, you are not sure whether he is Abu
16 Malik, you are just sure you saw him in the Sudan?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. Who else did you see at Taba Investments' offices in the
19 Sudan besides Abu Malik?
20 "A. I really don't know.
21 "Q. Did Madani al Tayyib, did he work at the same office as
22 you?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. Do you know if the person in No. 33 spoke to Madani al
25 Tayyib when he was there?
746
1 "A. I don't remember if he spoke to him or not.
2 "Q. Do you know if the person depicted in No. 33 knows Usama
3 Bin Laden?
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. Did you ever discuss mujahadeen with the person depicted
6 in photograph No. 33?
7 "A. I don't remember, no, I don't think so.
8 "Q. How many times did you see the person depicted in No. 33
9 in the Sudan?
10 "A. Just that one day.
11 "Q. Just once?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. Did anyone indicate to you that he was on the run from
14 anyone who was looking for him?
15 "A. No.
16 "Q. Did anyone indicate he was wanted by any authorities?
17 "A. No.
18 "Q. What did you think of the person in No. 33 when you saw
19 him in the Sudan?
20 "A. What did I think of him?
21 "Q. Yes.
22 "A. I thought he was sent by the American Embassy to check on
23 me probably.
24 "Q. Why do you think the American Embassy would send him to
25 check on you?
747
1 "A. Because I was in Sudan and the Sudanese government was
2 one of the governments that is not favored for other
3 countries, and mainly the United States.
4 "Q. So that we are clear, so you didn't think he was coming
5 to do you a favor from the embassy, you thought he was there
6 to spy on you?
7 "A. Yes. This thought came to me.
8 "Q. And you invited him home to your house for lunch?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. Was that before or after you thought he was there to spy
11 on you?
12 "A. Probably before.
13 "Q. Did you talk to anyone about the person depicted in No.
14 33, any of your friends, and ask them what they thought of
15 this person?
16 "A. No.
17 "Q. Now, you saw him once and you invited him to lunch at
18 your house?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. Did he come to lunch?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. Who was there for lunch?
23 "A. Just me and him and my family was.
24 "Q. And how long did he stay for lunch?
25 "A. Probably hour and a half.
748
1 "Q. Do you know what he was doing, if he had gone to any
2 other countries on the way to the Sudan on that occasion?
3 "A. He told me he left his wife and children in Egypt and he
4 came to Sudan.
5 "Q. Do you know where in Egypt he left his wife and children?
6 "A. Cairo.
7 "Q. Cairo. Do you know why he left his wife and children in
8 Cairo?
9 "A. No.
10 "Q. Do you know if any family events were going on at the
11 time in his life when you saw him?
12 "A. Family events?
13 "Q. Any weddings, funerals, things like that?
14 "A. No, I don't know.
15 "Q. Do you know where he went after he left Khartoum?
16 "A. I don't know.
17 "Q. Do you know if he ever traveled to Yemen?
18 "A. No, I don't.
19 "Q. Do you know if he ever traveled to Somalia?
20 "A. I don't.
21 "Q. What is your best recollection of the year that you saw
22 this person depicted in photograph 33?
23 "A. The year I saw him? Either '93 or '94.
24 "Q. Do you recall what time of year it was?
25 "A. No, I can't.
749
1 "Q. Anything else you can recall about the person depicted in
2 photograph No. 33?
3 "A. That is it.
4 "Q. Why don't you move on to photograph 34.
5 "A. I don't recognize.
6 "Q. You have never seen the person pictured in No. 34?
7 "A. No.
8 "Q. 35?
9 "A. Don't recognize.
10 "Q. 36?
11 "A. Don't recognize.
12 "Q. 37?
13 "A. I don't recognize.
14 "Q. 38?
15 "A. I don't recognize.
16 "Q. Have you ever been to Denmark?
17 "A. No.
18 "Q. Ever been to Copenhagen?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. 39?
21 "A. I don't recognize.
22 "Q. 40?
23 "A. Don't recognize.
24 "Q. 41?
25 "A. I don't recognize.
750
1 "Q. 42?
2 "A. Don't recognize.
3 "Q. 43?
4 "A. I don't recognize.
5 "Q. 44?
6 "A. I don't recognize.
7 "Q. 45?
8 "A. I don't recognize.
9 "Q. 46?
10 "A. I don't recognize.
11 "Q. 47?
12 "A. I do.
13 "Q. Who is No. 47?
14 "A. It is Abouhalima.
15 "Q. And where did you first meet Abouhalima?
16 "A. At the Services Office.
17 "Q. In?
18 "A. In New York.
19 "Q. New York. Did you ever meet Abouhalima outside of the
20 United States?
21 "A. No.
22 "Q. Do you know if he ever went to Afghanistan or Pakistan,
23 Abouhalima?
24 "A. No, I don't think he had ever been there.
25 "Q. How many times did you see Abouhalima in New York?
751
1 "A. Probably three times. At three different visits.
2 "Q. Why don't you tell us about the first time you met
3 Abouhalima.
4 "A. First time?
5 "Q. Yes.
6 "A. Could have been '87.
7 "Q. Do you recall how it is that you met him?
8 "A. Excuse me?
9 "Q. Do you recall how it is that you met Abouhalima?
10 "A. At the office, at the Services Office.
11 "Q. Do you know who introduced you?
12 "A. He was there in the office and I just talked to him.
13 "Q. By the way, do you know where Abouhalima is today?
14 "A. He is in jail.
15 "Q. Do you know what he is in jail for?
16 "A. He was accused of the World Trade Center bombing.
17 "Q. So he is in jail for the World Trade Center bombing?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. When you met him in 1987, when was the next time you met
20 him after that?
21 "A. Probably on my way back, because when I met him the first
22 time I was going to Pakistan. I went there for a month and
23 then I came back. He also came to Mektab al Khidemat and I
24 met him.
25 Q. That was the second time that you met him?
752
1 "A. Yes.
2 "Q. Do you recall who was there the second time you met
3 Abouhalima?
4 "A. Probably Mustafa Shalabi."
5 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I believe at this point
6 your Honor was going to give an instruction regarding the
7 World Trade Center bombing to the jury.
8 THE COURT: Yes. The instruction is that there is no
9 count in this indictment alleging that any defendant in this
10 case was involved in the bombing of the World Trade Center.
11 The bombing of the World Trade Center is not charged against
12 any defendant in this case.
13 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you.
14 "Q. By the way, do Abouhalima and Shalabi look alike?
15 "A. Yes, very much.
16 "Q. And do you recall what you discussed with Abouhalima on
17 the second occasion, the second time you met him?
18 "A. We never had any special discussion together.
19 "Q. We will come back to that.
20 "Did there come a third time you met Abouhalima?
21 "A. Yes, in '89.
22 "Q. And where was that?
23 "A. The same place.
24 "Q. And who was present in 1989?
25 "A. Same people, probably.
753
1 "Q. And do you recall what you discussed with Abouhalima on
2 the third time you met him in 1989?
3 "A. That was when Shalabi died.
4 "Q. Shalabi was murdered, correct?
5 "A. Yes."
6 MR. FITZGERALD: If I could interrupt. There's also
7 a stipulation that the government did not contend that Wadih
8 El Hage participated in the murder of Mustafa Shalabi or had
9 any prior knowledge of the murder.
10 THE COURT: Very well.
11 "Q. And was that the last time that you saw Abouhalima or did
12 you see him again after that?
13 "A. No, that was the last time I saw him.
14 "Q. We will come back to Shalabi's murder in a minute.
15 "Now, you understand it is important to give full and
16 complete answers to the Grand Jury.
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. You said you never had any special discussions with
19 Abouhalima; is that correct?
20 "A. Yes, at those visits.
21 "Q. Did you have special discussions with Abouhalima on any
22 other occasion?
23 "A. We probably talked over the phone.
24 "Q. Approximately how many times did you speak by phone to
25 Abouhalima?
754
1 "A. Three, four times.
2 "Q. And what did you discuss by telephone?
3 "A. One time he asked me if I can buy weapons for him to come
4 and pick it up because he wanted to take it for the training,
5 training the people he was sending to Afghanistan.
6 "Q. So he called you to buy weapons so that he could pick
7 them up and use them to train people for Afghanistan?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. When he called you, where did you live?
10 "A. In Texas, Dallas, Texas.
11 "Q. He called you, as you understood it, from New York?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. What kind of weapons did he want you to buy?
14 "A. AK-47 and a Seminov.
15 "Q. S-E-M-I-N-O-V?
16 "A. I think so. I am not sure.
17 "Q. How many AK-47s did he want you to buy?
18 "A. One.
19 "Q. How many Seminovs did he want you to buy?
20 "A. Two.
21 "Q. And did he want you to buy any handguns?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. What year was this?
24 "A. In '89.
25 "Q. And how do you place the date in your mind? Why do you
755
1 remember it as 1989?
2 "A. It was before I left, I think it is the same period when
3 I left Dallas to Pakistan. Probably '89, '90, in that period.
4 Probably six-month period.
5 "Q. And at the time that Mr. Abouhalima asked you to buy
6 weapons for him, did you have any weapons yourself already?
7 "A. Yes, I had a handgun.
8 "Q. What kind of handgun?
9 "A. A revolver.
10 "Q. A revolver?
11 "A. I think it was a .45 revolver.
12 "Q. Was that a licensed weapon?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. And when you were living in Texas, did you go hunting?
15 "A. No, not in Texas.
16 "Q. Did you go hunting in Arizona?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. What type of weapons would you use to go hunting in
19 Arizona?
20 "A. Shotguns and AK-47.
21 "Q. You would go hunting with an AK 47?
22 "A. Yes. It wasn't mine. The AK-47 wasn't mine.
23 "Q. After Abouhalima asked you to get weapons, what did you
24 do? Did you buy them?
25 "A. Yes, I did.
756
1 "Q. Where did you buy them?
2 "A. In the Dallas area.
3 "Q. From a store or from a person?
4 "A. From a person.
5 "Q. Who was the person that you bought the weapons from?
6 "A. My brother-in-law.
7 "Q. What is your brother-in-law's name?
8 "A. John Ray.
9 "Q. R-A-Y?
10 "A. Yes.
11 "Q. Do you know where John Ray got the weapons?
12 "A. From dealers. He was dealing himself, but he didn't have
13 a shop.
14 "Q. Did he have a federal firearms license, your
15 brother-in-law?
16 "A. I don't know. Yes. You mean license to buy and sell
17 weapons? Yes, he did.
18 Q. When you bought the weapons from your brother-in-law, John
19 Ray, did you do paperwork to show that you did the
20 transaction?
21 "A. Yes, uh-huh.
22 "Q. Did you file the paperwork with the government?
23 "A. Me? No, I didn't.
24 "Q. Do you know if he did?
25 "A. I am sure he did. It is his job.
757
1 "Q. How much did you pay for the AK-47?
2 "A. I don't recall. Probably $300.
3 "Q. How much did you pay for the two Seminovs?
4 "A. 150, 150.
5 "Q. And did Abouhalima send you the money?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Before or after?
8 "A. Before.
9 "Q. How did he send it?
10 "A. He sent a check.
11 "Q. In his name?
12 "A. In my name.
13 "Q. Drawn on his account?
14 "A. I don't recall if it was on his account or cashier's
15 check.
16 "Q. So you cashed the check, you bought the guns?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. What did you do with them?
19 "A. Kept them in my place.
20 "Q. For how long?
21 "A. Almost period of six months.
22 "Q. Did you call Abouhalima to tell him you had the weapons
23 ready?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. And what happened?
758
1 "A. Nothing. He never came to pick them up.
2 "Q. Did you ever make any efforts to try and ship the weapons
3 to New York?
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. Why not?
6 "A. I didn't want to.
7 "Q. You went out and bought the guns, right?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. He wanted them, correct?
10 "A. Right.
11 "Q. You had them?
12 "A. Uh-huh.
13 "Q. He is in New York?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. Why didn't you send them there?
16 "A. He supposed to come and pick them up. He said he would
17 come and pick them up himself.
18 "Q. Did you ever talk to him about it?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. Did he ever come?
21 "A. No.
22 "Q. Did he ever give you a reason why he didn't come to pick
23 up the weapons?
24 "A. No. Whenever we talked, he said he would come soon after
25 a week or after a few days, but he never did.
759
1 "Q. What happened to the weapons?
2 "A. I eventually sold them.
3 "Q. To whom?
4 "A. I advertised in the paper and people came and bought
5 them.
6 "Q. Do you know the names of the people who came to buy them?
7 "A. No, I don't recall.
8 "Q. What paper did you advertise in?
9 "A. The paper in Arlington. I can't recall the name.
10 "Q. English language newspaper?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. Just an ordinary newspaper in Arlington?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. Did you fill out any paperwork when you sold the guns
15 that were in your name to the people who came to answer the ad
16 in the paper?
17 "A. No.
18 "Q. Did you have a firearms license at the time?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. Were you concerned you shouldn't be selling guns to
21 people and not filling out paperwork?
22 "A. I asked about this, I was told I can sell it and
23 everybody puts ads in the paper for firearms and people just
24 buy and sell.
25 "Q. How much did you sell the guns for?
760
1 "A. I can't remember exactly, but probably the same as I
2 bought them, or maybe less.
3 "Q. Did you talk to Abouhalima about the fact that you sold
4 the guns?
5 "A. I don't recall telling him that."
6 MR. FRANCISCO: Lines 1 through 9 are redacted.
7 "Q. Were you ever asked to buy a larger quantity of guns than
8 just the AK-47 and the two Seminovs?
9 "A. No.
10 "Q. Were you ever asked to provide a handgun to Abouhalima?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. Do you recall ever giving Abouhalima a Brazilian made .9
13 millimeter handgun?
14 "A. No. I had the Brazilian made handgun, I sold that.
15 "Q. When did you get the Brazilian .9 millimeter handgun?
16 "A. In that same period.
17 "Q. From whom?
18 "A. I don't remember. It is either my brother-in-law or
19 where I bought it at a shop.
20 "Q. If you bought it at the shop, did you fill out the
21 paperwork in your own name?
22 "A. I must have, yes.
23 "Q. What did you do with the .9 millimeter?
24 "A. I sold it.
25 "Q. To whom?
761
1 "A. I don't recall. I remember putting it in the paper, but
2 I can't recall whom I sold it to.
3 "Q. Could you have sold it to Abouhalima?
4 "A. I don't think so. Abouhalima never took anything from
5 me, any weapon.
6 "Q. Could you have sold it to anyone in New York?
7 "A. No.
8 "Q. Did you sell it to anyone to be used to bodyguard Sheik
9 Omar Abdel Rahman?
10 "A. No, I don't know any of those people.
11 "Q. As you sit here today, do you have any idea where that .9
12 millimeter Brazilian made handgun is?
13 "A. I just remember -- I can't recall where did I dispose it.
14 I am sure I sold it to someone.
15 "Q. You were at picture No. --
16 "A. 47.
17 "Q. -- 47. Continue with 48.
18 A. I don't recognize it.
19 "49, I don't recognize.
20 "50, I don't recognize.
21 "51, I don't recognize.
22 "52, I don't recognize.
23 "53, I don't recognize.
24 "54, I do.
25 "Q. Who is 54?
762
1 "A. It is Abu Rida.
2 "Q. R-I-D-A?
3 "A. Yes.
4 "Q. Who is Abu Rida?
5 "A. He was working in Khartoum.
6 "Q. In what year?
7 "A. '92, '93.
8 "Q. Did you ever meet Abu Rida prior to meeting him in
9 Khartoum?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. Did you ever see him in Afghanistan or Pakistan?
12 "A. I don't recall, but he was there.
13 "Q. How do you know Abu Rida was in Afghanistan or Pakistan?
14 "A. He told me.
15 "Q. What company did Abu Rida work for?
16 "A. Taba, same.
17 "Q. The same. That is the company owned by Bin Laden?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. Did Abu Rida know Usama Bin Laden?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. Were they close?
22 "A. Just working for him. I don't know how close they are.
23 "Q. What was Abu Rida's job with Taba Investments?
24 "A. Marketing and buying the products, marketing the products
25 and buying equipment.
763
1 "Q. What was your job with Taba Investments?
2 "A. The same.
3 "Q. What was different about what Abu Rida did from what you
4 did?
5 "A. I took over his job. When I came over, I took over his
6 job.
7 "Q. When you took over Abu Rida's job, what did Abu Rida do?
8 "A. He opened his own investing office.
9 "Q. Where?
10 "A. In Khartoum.
11 "Q. What was the name of Abu Rida's separate investment
12 office?
13 "A. I don't recall.
14 "Q. Did you -- when you did purchases for Taba Investments,
15 or for that matter, for any company at any time, did you ever
16 buy explosives?
17 "A. No.
18 "Q. Did you ever buy explosives even for construction?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. Did you ever buy weapons for any of Bin Laden's
21 companies?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. Did you know if Abu Rida ever bought explosives for any
24 of Bin Laden's companies?
25 "A. No.
764
1 "Q. Did you know if Abu Rida ever bought weapons for Bin
2 Laden's companies?
3 "A. No.
4 "Q. Do you know of anyone in the world who bought explosives
5 for Bin Laden?
6 "A. No.
7 "Q. Are you sure?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. Do you know of anyone in the world who bought weapons for
10 Bin Laden?
11 "A. I don't.
12 "Q. Was Bin Laden a multimillionaire?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. Many, many businesses?
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. Supports Jihad throughout the world?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. You worked for his companies?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. You did international work for them, correct?
21 "A. Right.
22 "Q. And in the different Jihads in the different countries,
23 they need weapons, correct?
24 "A. I think so.
25 "Q. So under oath you are telling this jury you don't know
765
1 anyone, anywhere who ever bought weapons from Bin Laden?
2 "A. I don't.
3 "Q. How sure are you that the person depicted in No. 64 is
4 Abu Rida?
5 "A. 54?
6 "Q. 54, sorry.
7 "A. How sure?
8 "Q. Yes.
9 "A. I have seen him. I have seen him several times.
10 "Q. Do you know where Abu Rida is today?
11 "A. I think he is in Sudan.
12 "Q. When was the last time you spoke to Abu Rida?
13 "A. In '94.
14 "Q. And is that by telephone or in person?
15 "A. In person before I left Sudan.
16 "Q. Have you ever seen Abu Rida since 1994 in person?
17 "A. No.
18 "Q. Have you spoken to Abu Rida by telephone since 1994?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. Have you communicated with Abu Rida by fax, e-mail or
21 Internet since 1994?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. Continue with No. 55.
24 A. I don't recognize.
25 "Q. 56?
766
1 "A. I don't recognize.
2 "Q. 57?
3 "A. I don't recognize.
4 "Q. 58?
5 "A. I don't recognize.
6 "Q. 59?
7 "A. This is Mustafa Shalabi.
8 "Q. When did you first meet Mustafa Shalabi?
9 "A. In '87.
10 "Q. Where did you first meet Mustafa Shalabi?
11 "A. At the office, the Services Office.
12 "Q. Who introduced you?
13 "A. No one. I just went to the office and met him there.
14 "Q. What brought you there?
15 "A. I was traveling to Pakistan and I was to pick up some
16 money and aid that's going to the refugees over there.
17 "Q. Did you get any money from Shalabi?
18 "A. No, he didn't give me any money.
19 "Q. Did you ask him for money?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. Why did you laugh?
22 "A. Why would I ask him for money?
23 "Q. Wasn't Shalabi in charge of raising money in New York for
24 the Afghani refugees?
25 "A. Yes.
767
1 "Q. You were going to bring money to Afghani refugees in
2 Afghanistan?
3 "A. Yes.
4 "Q. Wouldn't you normally ask the person in charge of the aid
5 in New York, ask him for money?
6 "A. I thought you said if I ask him for myself.
7 "Q. Okay. I meant money for you to bring to the refugees.
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. Did he give you any?
10 "A. No, he didn't.
11 "Q. Why not?
12 "A. For some reason he didn't want to send it at that time.
13 Maybe it wasn't ready. I did not discuss this with him. I
14 just, I think I waited a day or two for my flight, for my next
15 flight to Pakistan.
16 "Q. When did you next see Mustafa Shalabi?
17 "A. On my way back.
18 "Q. And did you conduct any business with Mustafa Shalabi at
19 that time?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. How many times total did you meet with Mustafa Shalabi?
22 "A. Two times.
23 "Q. Just twice?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. And the first time was when you were on your way over to
768
1 Pakistan, the second time was on your way back, correct?
2 "A. No. No. Then there must be more than two times because
3 I met him after that.
4 "Only two times, right. Once I was going, the second
5 I was coming back.
6 "I was supposed to meet him again in '89 just before
7 he died. I am not sure he died in '89 or in '90, but it was
8 my last visit, I was supposed to go and meet him, but he was
9 killed before I met him.
10 "Q. Forgetting the last time when you didn't meet him because
11 he had been killed, were the first two meetings with Shalabi,
12 did you ever give him anything or did he ever give anything to
13 you?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. You never gave him money or weapons?
16 "A. No.
17 "Q. You never received money or weapons from him?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Did you ever bring messages to Shalabi from Pakistan?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. Did you ever bring messages from Shalabi to Pakistan?
22 "A. He sent letters with me to people in Pakistan.
23 "Q. Who were the people that you delivered the letters to?
24 "A. People in the Services Office in Peshawar.
25 "Q. Sheik Abdullah Azzam?
769
1 "A. Not necessarily. Other people working there.
2 "Q. Do you recall their names?
3 "A. No.
4 "Q. Do you know what the letters were about?
5 "A. No, they were closed letters."
6 THE COURT: Suppose we stop at that point. So it's
7 on page 56, line 25. And we'll break for lunch and we'll
8 resume at 2:15.
9 DEPUTY CLERK: Court stands in recess until 2:15.
10 THE COURT: Enjoy your lunch.
11 (Luncheon recess)
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25
770
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2 2:15 p.m.
3 (In open court; jury not present )
4 THE COURT: Mr. Fitzgerald, what do we do on Tuesday
5 if Mr. Schmidt should not be recovered?
6 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, he'll ready.
7 THE COURT: What's the next order of business?
8 MR. FITZGERALD: After Al Fadl, your Honor, the next
9 order of business involves El Hage, but we need to work out
10 submissions on which witness we go with next, the search of El
11 Hage's premise in 1997. Mr. Karas has been talking to
12 Mr. Dratel about submissions.
13 THE COURT: If something should happen on Tuesday, I
14 want there to be another witness and go forward. I don't want
15 to have a break.
16 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, Judge. Here is the issue,
17 Judge. The witness we wish to call, I understand there may be
18 submissions from El Hage. We're waiting to hear back. We
19 took this witness out of order and posed several other El Hage
20 witnesses so the problem is, we don't know where we go yet
21 until we hear back.
22 MR. DRATEL: We have to have the 3500. Before we do
23 that, we don't know what the nature of our position is.
24 MR. FITZGERALD: We have a search agent and a
25 computer agent, agents who seized computers and translations
771
1 and we have potential Somalia proof that I know Mr. Karas has
2 been talking to Mr. Dratel about the issues concerning the
3 search agents, the agents seizing the computer, the computer
4 experts downloading the material and then the translations.
5 THE COURT: If there is anything that is going to
6 require a ruling by the Court, is there any reason why that
7 can't be presented to me by 10 o'clock tomorrow?
8 MR. DRATEL: Yes, I think so, because two reasons
9 why. One is that I'm not sure what issues we want to be
10 handling in what order. Somalia we'll be able to get to the
11 government our position on Somalia probably by sometime
12 tomorrow morning is my guess. There is more than just us.
13 There is another team that is involved as well, so that
14 involves communication in that regard. But the first issue is
15 combing and until we receive the 3500.
16 MR. FITZGERALD: The 3500 will be ready today. Mr.
17 Karas is looking at it now. My understanding is Mr. Karas and
18 Mr. Dratel already talked about certain issues independent of
19 the 3500 material that might come up.
20 MR. DRATEL: It's a question of whether we're going
21 to cross on certain topics but until we see the 3500 I don't
22 know what is in there. But the other question about computer
23 experts that is something. It has to do with mirroring of the
24 hard drive from the computer that was seized in Nairobi and
25 there was a problem with replicating that in New York, so we
772
1 need to know what we're going to do about it.
2 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, my only point being this
3 grand jury testimony was supposed to be about three weeks from
4 now. There are a number of outstanding issues that we waited
5 for and we jumped ahead.
6 THE COURT: Now we know about Tuesday, and we know
7 that Mr. Schmidt may very well decide that two hours of
8 cross-examination is more than enough. Then what happens?
9 MR. FITZGERALD: My only point is, your Honor, we've
10 been trying to put the 3500 material, but the witnesses keep
11 changing because we've had issues with regard to search
12 engine, computer engine or with Somalia.
13 THE COURT: It's one or the other or a third and you
14 can give them all three and you can have all three of them
15 lined up. You know when it gets to be August an September and
16 the jury weary and you are weary, and I'm weary, we're going
17 to look back at times when things could have moved in a more
18 rapid pace.
19 MR. FITZGERALD: Judge, I don't think we're going to
20 see August and September, first. And part of the problem what
21 we told you is if we don't know if there is a stipulation or
22 something and we don't have an answer whether the Somalia
23 witness is in or out, we try to work, but we have to hear
24 back. We're stuck.
25 THE COURT: I understand. I understand Mr. Schmidt
773
1 getting the flu which is contrary to a court order which threw
2 things off, but I do really want to have continuity.
3 (Continued on next page)
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774
1 (Jury present)
2 THE COURT: Good afternoon. We continue with the
3 reading of Government Exhibit 400 which are the grand jury
4 minutes of examination of defendant El Hage and I believe we
5 ended up, we're on page 56, line 25.
6 "Q. Now, there came a time when you said that you were going
7 to see Shalabi in some year, just before he was killed?
8 "A. Uh-huh.
9 "Q. Can you tell the grand jury the circumstances under which
10 you decided to go to New York on that occasion?
11 "A. He called me in Dallas and asked me to come over to take
12 care of the office while he goes to Pakistan for about two
13 weeks so I agreed on that. So the day I went there he called
14 me. I told him I will arrive at a certain time for him to
15 meet me. When I arrived at the airport he wasn't there so I
16 called the office and Zindani was there. He came and picked
17 me up and then we went to the office. We waited for Shalabi
18 to show up. He didn't show up. Then either the next day or
19 the day after, we found out that he was killed.
20 "Q. Did you learn how he was killed?
21 "A. Not exactly but he was, I think he was tortured or was
22 cut with knives.
23 "Q. When you learned he was tortured and cut with knives,
24 were you curious as to who did it?
25 "A. Yes.
775
1 "Q. What did you do about who it was that killed Shalabi?
2 "A. There were different opinions. Some said probably the
3 Mossad, the Israeli intelligence. Some say it is the CIA.
4 Some others say it is the people of Omar Abdel Rahman. It was
5 different opinions.
6 "Q. Now, when he called you before you showed up in New York
7 and you discovered shortly after that he was dead, he called
8 you in Texas, although you had only met him, met twice in your
9 life?
10 "A. Uh-huh.
11 "Q. And he asked you to run the Services Office while he was
12 in New York while he was in Pakistan?
13 "A. Yes.
14 Q. Had you heard rumors in the community that Mustafa Shalabi
15 was not trusted at that point in time? Before you came to New
16 York did you hear people saying that Shalabi could not be
17 trusted?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Have you heard any rumors he was taking money from the
20 Services Office for himself?
21 "A. There was, after.
22 "Q. You heard that afterwards but not before?
23 "A. Yes. Yes.
24 "Q. Did you hear any dispute between Shalabi in New York and
25 the Mektab al Khidemat office in Pakistan as to how Shalabi
776
1 was handling link money?
2 "A. No. The dispute was in the office, here in the New York
3 office.
4 "Q. And you heard about the dispute after Shalabi was killed?
5 "A. Yes, in those two days that I stayed in the office.
6 "Q. Now, when you were invited to go to New York, how long
7 did you think you were going to stay running the Services
8 Office while Shalabi was in Pakistan?
9 "A. 15 days as we agreed.
10 "Q. And what did you think would happen at the end of the 15
11 days?
12 "A. He would come back and I'd go back to Texas.
13 "Q. Did you call anyone before you came to New York to tell
14 them that you were coming to New York to help run the Services
15 Office for Shalabi while I was in Pakistan?
16 "A. I don't recall calling anyone.
17 "Q. By the way, was the Services Office in New York also
18 known as the Al Kifah in New York?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. When you saw Zindani at the airport how did he treat you?
21 "A. Normally.
22 "Q. Did you have any discussions with Zindani as to why it
23 was you were coming to New York to run the Services Office
24 while Shalabi was away?
25 "A. No. I did not.
777
1 "Q. Did Zindani ever indicate to you that Shalabi had been
2 thrown out of the Services Office and had no right to ask you
3 from Texas to run the Services Office?
4 "A. No. He didn't know I was coming to take over the office.
5 "Q. Did you ever tell him you were coming to take over the
6 office?
7 "A. No.
8 "Q. As far as you know did he ever learn that you were coming
9 to take over the office?
10 "A. I don't know.
11 "Q. Did he ever yell at you about that Zindani?
12 "A. No.
13 "Q. Did he ever throw you out of the office and say, don't
14 come back, you weren't supposed to be here?
15 "A. No.
16 "Q. When Shalabi was killed where was his wife and family at
17 the time?
18 "A. He already sent them to Egypt.
19 "Q. So he sent the family on ahead?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. Do you know who took the family to the airport?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. Did you ever discuss it with anyone?
24 "A. No.
25 "Q. As you sit here today do you know who killed Mustafa
778
1 Shalabi?
2 "A. No.
3 "Q. Now, why don't you continue with picture number --
4 "A. 60.
5 "Q. -- 60.
6 "A. I don't know. I don't recognize it.
7 "Q. Okay.
8 "A. 61, I don't recognize. 62 I don't recognize. 63 I don't
9 recognize. 64 I don't recognize. 65 I don't recognize. 66,
10 I don't recognize. 67, I don't recognize. 68, I don't
11 recognize.
12 "Q. There are different pictures on 68 of three different
13 people, and you recognize none of them?
14 "A. None of them.
15 "Q. 69?
16 "A. I don't recognize.
17 "Q. 70?
18 "A. I don't recognize.
19 "Q. 71?
20 "A. I don't recognize.
21 "Q. 72?
22 "A. I don't recognize.
23 "Q. 73?
24 "A. I don't recognize.
25 "Q. 74?
779
1 "A. I don't recognize.
2 "Q. 75?
3 "A. I don't recognize.
4 "Q. 76?
5 "A. I don't recognize.
6 "Q. The upper right-hand corner of 77 it is a bad picture I
7 know. Do you recognize that person?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. If you could turn over the back of 77, take your time and
10 look at the group photograph and see if you recognize anyone
11 in there?
12 "A. No. I don't.
13 Assistant United States Attorney: Why don't we take
14 a short break.
15 (Witness temporarily excused, time noted 12:05 p.m.)
16 (No colloquy follows.)
17 (No colloquy precedes: Time noted 12:19 p.m.)
18 (Witness resumed).
19 THE FOREPERSON: I must remind you you are still
20 under oath.
21 (The record was read)
22 "Q. I will show you a few more photographs. One is marked
23 Grand Jury Exhibit 4 on the back with a small 1 with the date
24 9/24/97. Take a look at that and tell me if you recognize the
25 person in that picture?
780
1 (Witness perusing photograph)
2 "A. No.
3 "Q. The next one is marked Grand Jury Exhibit 9 with the date
4 9/24/97, a man standing. Take a good look at the picture and
5 tell me if you recognize who that is?
6 (Witness perusing photograph)
7 "A. I don't.
8 "Q. Let me show you what's been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 6
9 with the date on the sticker of 9/24/97 and ask if you
10 recognize the person in this photograph from a newspaper
11 clipping in Arabic?
12 "A. Yes, this is Usama Bin Laden.
13 "Q. And the picture of Usama Bin Laden appears to be in front
14 of a library with a weapon hanging in front of it. Do you
15 recognize the weapon, what kind of weapon is it? It is AK-47?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. Do you recognize the setting in which Usama Bin Laden is
18 sitting with the weapon?
19 "A. I don't understand what you mean.
20 "Q. Have you been in that room in which Usama Bin Laden is
21 sitting?
22 "A. No. Never.
23 "Q. Have you ever seen Usama Bin Laden in that library?
24 "A. No.
25 "Q. When was the last time you saw Usama Bin Laden in person?
781
1 "A. In '94.
2 "Q. You are positive?
3 "A. Yes.
4 "Q. Under oath your testimony is that you have not seen Usama
5 Bin Laden in 1995, 1996, or 1997. Is that correct?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Have you spoken to Usama Bin Laden by telephone in 1995,
8 1996 or 1997?
9 "A. I talked to him once after I left Sudan.
10 "Q. What occasion was that?
11 "A. He was asking me about the spare parts for tractors that
12 I had purchased earlier in Khartoum and that they needed it
13 urgently. I should travel to go and pick it up.
14 "Q. When you spoke to him by telephone, where were you and
15 where was he?
16 "A. I was in Nairobi.
17 "Q. In Kenya?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. And Usama Bin Laden was where?
20 "A. In Khartoum.
21 "Q. And who called who?
22 "A. He called me.
23 "Q. And did you go to Slovakia?
24 "A. Yes, I did.
25 "Q. And who did you go with?
782
1 "A. Alone.
2 "Q. Alone?
3 "A. Yes.
4 "Q. What did you do in Slovakia?
5 "A. I went to the tractor company. It is called Zetor
6 Company.
7 "Q. Can you spell the name of the tractor company?
8 "A. Z-E-T-O-R.
9 "Q. Where in Slovakia are they located?
10 "A. In the city of Martin.
11 "Q. Can you spell that?
12 "A. M-A-R-T-I-N.
13 "Q. And did you do a business deal with that company in
14 Martin in Slovakia?
15 "A. Yes. I did.
16 "Q. And did you do it in your name or in the name of Taba
17 Investments?
18 "A. It is in the name of Laden International. It is my,
19 under my name, but are for Laden International.
20 "Q. What year was this?
21 "A. Starting '92.
22 "Q. When did you finish the deal?
23 "A. I finished one deal in '92, another one in '93 and this
24 spare parts deal in '95. I am not sure if it was '95 or early
25 '96. Most probably '95.
783
1 "Q. Do you have your passport with you?
2 "A. Yes, I do.
3 "Q. Can you look at it and tell us the date you went to
4 Slovakia?
5 "A. This passport is in '95, it is for '95.
6 "Q. Which date?
7 A. It is written in their language of the 7th of, I can't
8 read the name of the month. It says '95.
9 "Q. Did you use a bank account for that transaction?
10 "A. Yes, I did.
11 "Q. And where was the bank account located?
12 "A. In Vienna.
13 "Q. At what bank?
14 "A. Girocredit.
15 "Q. G-I-R-O Credit?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. In whose name was the bank account?
18 "A. My name.
19 "Q. In your name, Usama Bin Laden's money?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. What was the amount of money used for the transaction --
22 strike that.
23 What was the amount of money for which you paid the
24 company in Slovakia for the equipment that you purchased?
25 "A. Well, $25,000 was transferred to the account to my
784
1 account in Vienna to pay for spare parts and other things.
2 The first time I don't recall the exact numbers, but we paid
3 all the 25 for the company, but on two different consignments.
4 "Q. How much was paid in total for the company?
5 "A. $25,000.
6 "Q. Total?
7 "A. In that year.
8 "Q. In that year?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. What did you get for the $25,000?
11 "A. Spare parts, spare parts.
12 "Q. You say spare parts and some other things. What were the
13 other things?
14 "A. There were no other things. Just spare parts for
15 tractors.
16 "Q. Where were the spare parts sent to?
17 "A. To Khartoum.
18 "Q. Was Usama Bin Laden still living in Khartoum at that
19 time?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. Did there come a time when you learned that Usama Bin
22 Laden moved from Khartoum back to Afghanistan?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. When did that happen?
25 "A. '96.
785
1 "Q. How did you learn about it?
2 "A. Newspapers.
3 "Q. Did anyone call you personally and tell you Usama Bin
4 Laden has moved?
5 "A. No.
6 "Q. You are sure?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. Did anyone visit you to tell you that Usama Bin Laden had
9 moved?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. The last time you spoke to him regarding the Slovakia
12 transaction when did you speak to him, what year?
13 "A. After that?
14 "Q. Yes.
15 "A. That was the last time.
16 "Q. So since 1994, other than the one phone call involving
17 the tractor transaction in Slovakia, you have not spoken to
18 Usama Bin Laden at all?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. Have you communicated with him by fax during the time
21 after 1994 by sending a telecopier fax?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. Have you communicated with him by Internet or E Mail?
24 "A. No.
25 "Q. Since 1994?
786
1 "A. No.
2 "Q. Have you communicated with anyone who represented Bin
3 Laden as his representative?
4 "A. Yes.
5 "Q. Who did you communicate with?
6 "A. Madani.
7 "Q. When was the last time you spoke to Madani al Tayyib?
8 "A. I think in '95.
9 "Q. Did you communicate with Madani al Tayyib in 1996 or
10 1997?
11 "A. Maybe by phone.
12 "Q. Try your best to recall. Did you speak to Madani al
13 Tayyib in 1996 or 1997?
14 "A. I am sure I didn't speak with him in '97 but in '96
15 possibly. I am not sure.
16 "Q. Abu -- do you know Abu Hafs al Masry al Khabir?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. He is a very close associate of Madani al Tayyib?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. Did you speak to him in 1994, 1995, 1996 or 1997?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. Did you communicate with Abu Hafs al Masry in 1994 or
23 1995, 1996, 1997 in any way, by phone, in person, by fax, by E
24 Mail or by Internet?
25 "A. In 1994 just in Khartoum before I left.
787
1 "Q. You spoke to him in person?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. After you left Khartoum in 1994 did you ever communicate
4 with Abu Hafs al Masry by phone, by Internet, by mail or by
5 fax?
6 "A. No.
7 "Q. We will come back to that. Let me show you a picture by
8 the way of a newspaper article in front of you Grand Jury
9 Exhibit 2. Do you recognize what newspaper that is?
10 "A. The name?
11 "Q. Yes?
12 "A. It is Al Quds.
13 "Q. And the Al Quds al Arabi, did you see that article when
14 it appeared in Al Quds al Arabi, the one you are looking at
15 now?
16 "A. This article?
17 "Q. Yes.
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Let me show you Grand Jury Exhibit 1 with a date written
20 on the exhibit sticker 9-24-97. It's a picture of a man by
21 the name of Rashad Khalifa. Now, do you know who Rashad
22 Khalifa is?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. When did you first hear of Rashad Khalifa?
25 "A. In Tucson, Arizona.
788
1 "Q. What year?
2 "A. '97.
3 "Q. '97 or '87?
4 "A. '87, sorry.
5 "Q. Rashad Khalifa claimed to be a Muslim, correct?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. And he had a different way of practicing Islam; is that
8 correct?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. And he believed a lot in numbers -- correct -- and how
11 numbers determine things, correct?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. And many of the people who followed Islam thought that he
14 was off the true path of Islam; is that correct?
15 "A. That's right.
16 "Q. And he had men and women mixed at prayer time, correct?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. And they didn't wear traditional Muslim garb; is that
19 correct?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. It was during that time that people thought that Rashad
22 Khalifa was a heretic, an infidel?
23 "A. Some people said.
24 "Q. The mosque that Rashad Khalifa prayed at how for away
25 from your mosque was it?
789
1 "A. About ten minutes.
2 "Q. And what was the name of the mosque that you prayed at?
3 "A. The Islamic Center of Tucson.
4 "Q. And where was your home in relation to the mosque that
5 Rashad Khalifa prayed at?
6 "A. Also about ten minutes far.
7 "Q. Did you, can you explain to the jury what a fatwa is,
8 F-A-T-W-A?
9 "A. Fatwa is a religious opinion given by a scholar.
10 "Q. And did you ever hear of any fatwas issued by Rashad
11 Khalifa was a heretic and should be killed?
12 "A. No, never.
13 "Q. You never heard of it?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. Even to this day?
16 "A. No. Never heard of a fatwa, but heard people saying that
17 someone who does something that he did he should be killed.
18 Just normal people, not fatwa from a scholar who is
19 responsible for what he says.
20 "Q. Do you recall the name of the normal people you heard say
21 that people who do what Rashad Khalifa did should be killed?
22 "A. No. I don't. There were students at the mosque over
23 there, mostly students that they talked. I can't recall
24 anyone specific who said that.
25 "Q. Do you recall learning that there came a time when Rashad
790
1 Khalifa was killed in Arizona?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. And prior to the murder of Rashad Khalifa, did someone
4 come to visit you in Tucson?
5 "A. Concerning Rashad Khalifa?
6 "Q. Yes?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. Could you tell the grand jury what happened, who came to
9 see you, why, and what you did?
10 "A. Someone called me and said he is a visitor from New York
11 and he is waiting at the mosque and he would like to see me.
12 "Q. Did this person give his name?
13 "A. He said Abu something. I can't remember.
14 "Q. You can't remember his name?
15 "A. No.
16 "Q. And he said he was visiting from New York?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. Did he say how he got your phone number?
19 "A. No. Never bothered to ask.
20 "Q. You never asked him how he got your phone number?
21 "A. No.
22 "Q. What did you say when he asked you if he could speak to
23 you?
24 "A. I said, okay. I went to the mosque.
25 "Q. What happened when you got to the mosque?
791
1 "A. I saw him and he told me he came to see Rashad Khalifa
2 and investigate the things he heard about Rashad Khalifa and
3 his teaching.
4 "Q. What did he tell you he heard about Rashad Khalifa and
5 his teaching?
6 "A. He said he heard teachings that contradict teachings of
7 what all the Muslims agree on.
8 "Q. Did he specify what those teachings were?
9 "A. I don't recall if he specified things, but I understood
10 what he meant because we all knew the things that Rashad
11 Khalifa did.
12 "Q. Such as?
13 "A. Things that you mentioned, like the prayer mixing of men
14 and women, and the numbers, theory of numbers, that he said
15 the Koran is depending on numbers. These things were
16 contradicting what most Muslims believe in.
17 "Q. When you met with him at the mosque who else was present?
18 "A. I don't recall any specific person but there were other
19 people.
20 "Q. How long did you meet with him at the mosque?
21 "A. About ten, 15 minutes.
22 "Q. Did he tell you sent him to Arizona to check out Rashad
23 Khalifa?
24 "A. No.
25 "Q. Did you ask him?
792
1 "A. No.
2 "Q. Did he tell you who in New York had given him your name?
3 "A. No.
4 "Q. Did you ask him who in New York knew him?
5 "A. No. I didn't.
6 "Q. Did you ask him if he knew Zindani?
7 "A. No, I didn't ask him about any names, but I suppose that
8 someone, either Shalabi or Zindani or those people, they knew
9 him.
10 "Q. What happened after you spoke for ten minutes at the
11 mosque?
12 "A. We went to my house and had lunch.
13 "Q. So you invited him to your house for lunch?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. Who was present?
16 "A. Just my family.
17 "Q. Your wife was there?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. Did she join you in the meal?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. But she met this fellow?
22 "A. No, she didn't.
23 "Q. And for how long did you have lunch?
24 "A. About hour, hour and a half.
25 "Q. What did you talk about?
793
1 "A. Just general things.
2 "Q. Like?
3 "A. I can't recall.
4 "Q. Did you talk about --
5 "A. Probably about Rashad Khalifa.
6 "Q. Did this person seem like he was upset with Rashad
7 Khalifa?
8 "A. Yes, yes, I remember now. He said he went to pray to the
9 Friday prayer, it was Friday, and they wouldn't allow him in
10 because he had the long beard and they would not allow him in
11 to pray and he just looked from outside and he saw men and
12 women sitting together.
13 "Q. What did you think about that?
14 "A. At the Friday prayer they are supposed to be separated.
15 "Q. Did the person who went to check out Rashad Khalifa, was
16 he happy about the fact that men and women were getting
17 together during the prayer?
18 "A. No, he wasn't.
19 "Q. Was he angry?
20 "A. He wasn't angry. Just like all the Muslims are saying
21 that this is something that is contradicting the teaching of
22 Islam.
23 "Q. But he flew all the way out to New York to Arizona to go
24 into the mosque to see what was going on, and they didn't let
25 him in?
794
1 "A. Yes.
2 "Q. You are telling us he wasn't angry when he was back at
3 your house having lunch?
4 "A. I didn't say he wasn't angry, but he told me that what he
5 saw he wasn't happy with it or was not, what is supposed to
6 be.
7 "Q. Did he have a gun?
8 "A. I don't know.
9 "Q. Did you talk to him about guns?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. Was this during the time period when you were supposed to
12 be getting guns from Abouhalima back in New York?
13 "A. No.
14 Lines 14 and 15 are redacted.
15 "Q. What did this person look like?
16 "A. He was tall with glasses, white, long beard.
17 "Q. What color hair?
18 "A. Black.
19 "Q. And could you tell what ethnic background he was from?
20 "A. Egyptian.
21 "Q. So a tall, white Egyptian with black hair long beard and
22 glasses?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. Did he give you a name?
25 "A. No.
795
1 "Q. Did he give you a phone number?
2 "A. No.
3 "Q. Did you ever call him after that?
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. Did you ever see him after that?
6 "A. No.
7 "Q. Did he ever call you after that?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. What is your best recollection of when this meeting took
10 place when this person had lunch at your house?
11 "A. I think it is 1987.
12 "Q. Let me ask you this. In relates to how long after this
13 visit to your house did you learn that Rashad Khalifa was
14 killed?
15 "A. A couple months.
16 "Q. So this person comes all the way from New York, doesn't
17 tell you his full name, doesn't tell you who sent him, comes
18 to a mosque, asks you to go visit him there, and you do,
19 correct?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. Then he tells you is here to check out Rashad Khalifa, a
22 person who he thinks is against Islam, correct?
23 "A. I don't know whether he thought that or not. He got this
24 information and he wanted to be sure whether it is true or
25 not.
796
1 "Q. So he flew 2,000 miles from New York to Arizona to be
2 sure it was correct, am I right?
3 "A. Yes.
4 "Q. Then you invite him over to your house, correct?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. You learn that he tried to get into the mosque but they
7 wouldn't let him in, correct?
8 "A. Right.
9 "Q. And that is very un-Islamic to keep a Muslim out of the
10 mosque on Friday, the prayer day, right?
11 "A. Right.
12 "Q. And he saw men and women mixing when he looked in the
13 window at the mosque, correct?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. And then he goes back to New York, correct?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. And you know people are talking about Rashad Khalifa
18 doing things against Islam and he should be killed, right, at
19 that time?
20 "A. I don't recall anybody saying about he should be killed.
21 "Q. Now, you hear a couple of months later Rashad Khalifa is
22 dead, right?
23 "A. Right.
24 "Q. Did it cross your mind that maybe the guy that came to
25 visit you for lunch who came to check out Rashad Khalifa could
797
1 have been there to kill him?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. Did you tell anyone?
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. Did you tell your wife?
6 "A. I don't recall talking about this with her.
7 "Q. Did you tell the police?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. Did you tell the FBI?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. Did you go to the local mosque and tell the imam of the
12 mosque you may know who could have killed Rashad Khalifa?
13 "A. I was overseas when this happened.
14 "Q. Where were you?
15 "A. In Pakistan.
16 "Q. How do you know you were in Pakistan when this happened?
17 "A. I heard about it.
18 "Q. How did you hear about it?
19 "A. News.
20 "Q. Did anyone tell you in person?
21 "A. I called Tucson, yes, not the news, I called Tucson and
22 someone told me that this happened.
23 "Q. Who told you?
24 "A. I can't recall who was it.
25 "Q. Was it Mubarak al Dousri?
798
1 "A. It is possible. One of my friends who were in Tucson.
2 "Q. Were you happy or sad when you heard that Rashad Khalifa
3 was killed?
4 "A. I was normal.
5 "Q. Normal?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Were you upset? Did you think it was a good thing or bad
8 thing that he was dead?
9 "A. I think it was a good thing.
10 "Q. You got back from Pakistan, did you tell the imam of your
11 mosque what you knew?
12 "A. I got back after a year.
13 "Q. And he was still dead?
14 "A. Excuse me?
15 "Q. And he was still dead, right, Rashad Khalifa?
16 Did you tell anyone when you got back that you may
17 know someone who could have been involved in his murder?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Were you at all curious to call back to New York to your
20 friends up there to find out who it was who came to your
21 house?
22 "A. No, I never thought that.
23 "Q. Did it strike you as odd that someone who went there to
24 kill someone went to your house for lunch?
25 "A. I forgot about that visit.
799
1 "Q. How many times des someone come to your house to check
2 someone out and then the person ends up dead?
3 "A. That is the only time I would think so.
4 "Q. And it didn't bother you?
5 "A. I have other thing to think of other than someone
6 visiting me to check up someone else.
7 "Q. Did you ask anyone who sent this guy to my house, to my
8 home, where I live with my wife and kids who seemed like they
9 wanted to kill someone? Did you make any effort to find out
10 at all?
11 "A. I didn't think it was my business.
12 "Q. Not your business who comes into your home?
13 "A. No, who sent who. This guy didn't come to my home. I
14 invited him for lunch.
15 "Q. When you invited him he came and walked into your home?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. He sat down in your kitchen and ate?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. Have you ever seen that person again?
20 "A. No. Never.
21 "Q. Let me show you Jury Exhibit 9. Look at it very
22 carefully and tell us under oath whether or not this is the
23 person who came to your house?
24 (Witness perusing photograph)
25 "A. No. That is not him. I remember the face of that guy
800
1 very well.
2 "Q. How does that guy's face differ from the guy in Grand
3 Jury Exhibit 9?
4 "A. I don't know but it is, but it is very close. This guy
5 is the same thing, white, with long beard, and I think he is
6 Egyptian. He looks like Egyptian. But I am not sure if this
7 is him or not. If I see the picture of that person I am sure
8 I can recognize him.
9 "Q. Do you know if Grand Jury Exhibit 9 is or is not the
10 person that came to your home?
11 "A. No. It is not.
12 "Q. Can you tell us any differences between the person who
13 came to your house and Grand Jury Exhibit 9?
14 "A. I think that one was bigger, wider.
15 "Q. The guy who came to your house was bigger and wider?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. The guy who came to your house, did you ever hear whether
18 or not he later ever worked for Usama Bin Laden?
19 "A. No. I never seen him after that or heard anything about
20 him.
21 "Q. Did you ever discuss him with anyone in Pakistan?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. Did you ever discuss the fact that Rashad Khalifa was
24 killed with the people in Pakistan working at Mektab al
25 Khidemar?
801
1 "A. Might have, or we were discussing it with different
2 people.
3 "Q. Were they happy that he was dead?
4 "A. Some are.
5 "Q. Do you know anything else about the murder of Rashad
6 Khalifa that you have not told this grand jury today?
7 "A. No.
8 "Q. Did you ever go by the mosque where Rashad Khalifa
9 preached, yourself?
10 "A. I've passed by it several times.
11 "Q. Did you ever take the man who came to visit you to go by
12 that mosque?
13 "A. No.
14 "Q. How did you get to your house?
15 "A. By car. I took him by my car.
16 "Q. You went to the mosque, you pick him up, brought him to
17 your house?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. How did he leave your house?
20 "A. I don't remember. Either I took him back to the mosque
21 or he left walking.
22 "Q. How long a walk is it from your house to the mosque that
23 you picked him up at?
24 "A. About half an hour walking.
25 "Q. And would ordinarily invite someone over for lunch drive
802
1 them to your house and make them walk back?
2 "A. No. I took him back.
3 "Q. He is from New York?
4 "A. Yes.
5 "Q. Did he know where Rashad Khalifa's lives mosque was?
6 "A. Apparently he did because he told me he already went
7 there for the Friday prayer.
8 "Q. Do you know how he got there?
9 "A. No. I didn't bother to ask.
10 "Q. Now, when you were in Pakistan you worked for and
11 organization called Al Bunyan al Marsous?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. Can you spell that for the court reporter?
14 "A. AL-BUNYAN, then AL-MARSOUS.
15 "Q. This was a magazine?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. Published out of where?
18 "A. Peshawar.
19 "Q. What years did you work for Al Bunyan al Marsous?
20 "A. '89.
21 "Q. From 1989 until when?
22 "A. '90.
23 "Q. What happened in 1990?
24 "A. I came back to the States.
25 "Q. Did you ever work for Al Bunyan after 1990?
803
1 "A. Yes, distributing the magazine from Arlington.
2 "Q. From Arlington, Texas?
3 "A. Yes.
4 "Q. For how long did you continue being associated with Al
5 Bunyan Magazine?
6 "A. Almost one year.
7 "Q. When did that stop?
8 "A. I think by the end of 1990.
9 "Q. Did you ever go back to working for Al Bunyan after that
10 point?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. When you worked for Al Bunyan did you get an Al Bunyan
13 identification card?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. Who gave it to you?
16 "A. The manager.
17 "Q. Who was the manager?
18 "A. His name is Mohammed.
19 "Q. What was Mohammed's last name?
20 "A. Shabana, S-H-A-B-A-N-A.
21 "Q. Do you still have your Al Bunyan identification card?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. Did you ever arrange for other people to get Al Bunyan
24 identification cards?
25 "A. In Pakistan, yes.
804
1 "Q. Did those people work for Al Bunyan or were there other
2 people who just needed identification cards?
3 "A. No, they were working there.
4 "Q. Did Asmari ever work for Al Bunyan?
5 "A. I don't know.
6 "Q. Let's talk about Azmarai. When did you first meet
7 Azmarai?
8 "A. In '83 or '84.
9 "Q. Where was that?
10 "A. In Peshawar.
11 "Q. What was Azmarai doing in Peshawar?
12 "A. He was joining the mujahideen.
13 "Q. Do you know who he came to Peshawar with?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. Do you know if he knew Usama Bin Laden in Peshawar at
16 that time?
17 "A. At that time, no. I didn't know Usama Bin Laden at that
18 time.
19 "Q. And where did you first meet Azmarai?
20 "A. Peshawar.
21 "Q. Did you have much contact with him in 1983?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. What did you hear about Azmarai?
24 "A. He was a brave fighter.
25 "Q. What did you hear about what Azmarai had done that made
805
1 him known as a brave fighter?
2 "A. He joined in one battle and did well, and then he was hit
3 by a land mine and he lost, I think he lost his leg and a few
4 fingers.
5 "Q. Did you come to see Azmarai again after 1983?
6 "A. In '89, '89 or '90.
7 "Q. Where did you see Azmarai the next time?
8 "A. In Peshawar.
9 "Q. What was he there?
10 "A. Same thing, but he was associated with Bin Laden.
11 "Q. And how did you find out that he was associated with Bin
12 Laden then?
13 "A. From other people.
14 "Q. Who told you that?
15 "A. A friend of mine.
16 "Q. And his name is?
17 "A. Mohammed Kassem.
18 "Q. Could you spell the last name?
19 "A. K-A-S-S-E-M.
20 "Q. So Mohammed Kassem, could you tell us how you knew
21 Mohamed Kassem?
22 "A. I Mets him in Peshawar.
23 "Q. How close were you as friends?
24 "A. Very close.
25 "Q. What was Mohammed Kassem doing in Peshawar?
806
1 "A. He was emigrated from Iraq to Peshawar with his whole
2 family.
3 "Q. Did he have an Abu name?
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. And what did Mohammed Kassem tell you about Azmarai?
6 "A. Same thing, that he is a good fighter and that now he is
7 associated with Bin Laden.
8 "Q. What was Bin Laden's organization called at this time?
9 "A. Al Qaeda.
10 "Q. Al Qaeda, Q-A-I-D-A?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. Arabic meaning is "the base"?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. And you understood Azmarai to be associated with al Qaeda
15 at this time?
16 "A. No. I don't know if he is associated with al Qaeda or
17 Bin Laden.
18 "Q. Who do you understand formed al Qaeda?
19 "A. Abu Hafs, Abu Obaida.
20 "Q. And so you understood that Bin Laden, Abu Hafs and Abu
21 Obaida formed al Qaeda?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. What was the purpose of al Qaeda?
24 "A. To gather this different mujahideen freedom fighters in
25 Afghanistan and to unite them and guide them together.
807
1 "Q. And these are the mujahideen in different countries?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. Mujahideen in Algeria, Indonesia and Egypt, each fighting
4 in their own country, they were to unite --
5 "A. No, the ones who were in Afghanistan.
6 "Q. The Afghanistan veterans going back to Algeria, Egypt and
7 other places to fight were to be united in one organization
8 called al Qaeda; is that what you are saying?
9 "A. No. The ones who came to the -- fighting in Afghanistan,
10 they were to be united in al Qaeda.
11 "Q. To do what?
12 "A. To fight the Russians.
13 "Q. The Russians had left by 1990; is that correct?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. So what were they doing in 1990?
16 "A. It was formed in '87.
17 "Q. Okay. So in '87 al Qaeda was formed to fight the
18 Russians as a unified force?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. What happened with al Qaeda after the Russians left?
21 "A. I don't know.
22 "Q. You saw Azmarai in 1989, correct?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. In 198 Abu Hafs, Abu Obaida, and Usama Bin Laden still
25 had al Qaeda going, correct?
808
1 "A. Yes.
2 "Q. The Russians were gone, correct?
3 "A. Right.
4 "Q. Who were they fighting?
5 "A. I don't know.
6 "Q. Was anyone left?
7 "A. Uh-huh.
8 "Q. The Russians were gone, correct?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. The United States was still around, correct?
11 "A. The United States?
12 "Q. This country.
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. We were still here?
15 "A. Right.
16 "Q. Did you ever hear that al Qaeda began to target the
17 United States?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Never?
20 "A. Not at that time.
21 "Q. When did you hear al Qaeda began to target the United
22 States?
23 "A. In the latest interview with Usama Bin Laden CNN.
24 "Q. Approximately how long ago did you see Bin Laden state on
25 CNN that the United States was now the target?
809
1 "A. When I came back to Nairobi about three weeks ago.
2 "Q. And you saw Bin Laden on CNN TV?
3 "A. Yes.
4 "Q. And you recognized his picture?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. You recognized his voice?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. What did you understand Bin Laden to say? What did he
9 say?
10 "A. Any particular questions? He mentioned so many things.
11 "Q. I just want you your understanding of what he was saying
12 on TV about America?
13 "A. About America? He said that the regime in Saudi was
14 corrupt and they have to change it, but it is being protected
15 by United States troops, so in order to correct that regime we
16 have to ask the American troops to leave, and if they don't
17 leave by peace, then they will have to do some military action
18 to make them leave.
19 "Q. Had you ever heard Usama Bin Laden state that the
20 American forces should be attacked, prior to seeing it on CNN
21 television?
22 "A. No, never.
23 "Q. You are positive?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. You are swearing that under oath, under the penalties of
810
1 perjury -- strike the word "swear."
2 You are stating that under oath under the penalty of
3 perjury, that prior to hearing it on CNN you had not heard
4 Usama Bin Laden declare that Americans should be attacked?
5 "A. Yes. Never heard that before.
6 The Assistant US Attorney: I think it is time for a
7 lunch break. Can we pick it up, it is 1 o'clock. We will
8 pick it up at 2. Thank you.
9 THE FOREPERSON: You are temporarily excused. Please
10 return at 2:30.
11 (Witness temporarily excused. Time noted 1 p.m.
12 (Colloquy follows)
13 (No colloquy precedes: Time noted 2:15 p.m.)
14 (Witness resumed.)
15 THE FOREPERSON: I must remind the witness he is
16 still under oath.
17 "Q. Mr. Hajj, we were talking about Mr. Azmarai before lunch
18 and you mentioned you had seen him in 1989?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. And Mohammed Kassem had told you that he was, he was
21 working with Bin Laden?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. What is your best recollection of what Mohammed Kassem
24 told you about how Asmarai and Bin Laden were working
25 together?
811
1 "A. He told me that he is very close friends to him and he
2 has most of his secrets, most of Mr. Bin Laden's secrets.
3 "Q. Azmarai had most of Bin Laden's secrets?
4 "A. Yes.
5 "Q. Did Mr. Kassem tell you what any of those secrets were?
6 "A. I don't think he knew any.
7 "Q. Did you know what the secrets concern?
8 "A. Not really.
9 "Q. Azmarai was a military guy, correct?
10 "A. Correct.
11 "Q. He was a gay that lost part of his hand and part of his
12 leg against the Russians?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. He was known as a great fighter?
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. Do you know if his secrets with Bin Laden concerned
17 military work?
18 "A. I don't know, could be.
19 "Q. Did you ever hear of Azmarai fighting against the Tajiks
20 in Tajikistan?
21 "A. No, never heard of that.
22 "Q. Did you ever hear about Azmarai fighting the Russians
23 just over the Tajikistan border?
24 "A. No.
25 "Q. Did you ever see a videotape made of Azmarai fighting in
812
1 Tajikistan against the Russians?
2 "A. No, never.
3 "Q. Did you ever hear about such a videotape?
4 "A. I heard about operations, but I didn't know there were
5 any videotapes.
6 "Q. Did you ever hear about any operations that Azmarai
7 participated in?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. When did you see Azmarai next after 1989?
10 "A. I think it was last year. Either '89 or '90. Just
11 before I left Pakistan back to the States.
12 "Q. How many times in total did you see Azmarai?
13 "A. Probably four or five times that year.
14 "Q. Okay. Did you attend his wedding?
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. Where did he get married?
17 "A. In Peshawar.
18 "Q. And how many people attended his wedding?
19 "A. I don't know; 15 or 20 people.
20 "Q. 15 or 20 people?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. So you were fairly close to Azmarai if you attended his
23 wedding as one of the 15 or 20 guests?
24 "A. I wasn't close to him, no. Probably because Mohammed
25 Kassem invited me in. Not Azmarai himself.
813
1 "Q. Who did Azmarai marry?
2 "A. I don't know.
3 "Q. Was the woman he married related to anyone else involved
4 in the jihad?
5 "A. I don't know, but most probably yes. But I don't know.
6 I am not sure.
7 "Q. Was Bin Laden at the wedding?
8 "A. I don't recall his being there, no.
9 "Q. Well, Bin Laden was pretty famous, correct?
10 "A. Yes.
11 "Q. They called him the mujahid sheik?
12 "A. I don't recall this name, but he was given so many hero
13 names.
14 "Q. If Bin Laden were at their wedding would you remember it?
15 "A. I believe so, if he was at the wedding, because I haven't
16 seen him that many times in Peshawar, so if he was at the
17 marriage I would have remembered.
18 "Q. Who do you remember being at the wedding besides
19 yourself, Azmarai, Mohammed Kassem, who else was there?
20 "A. Mohamed Shabana.
21 "Q. That's the fellow who ran Al Bunyan Magazine?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. Anyone else that you recall?
24 "A. I remember there were about three, four other Saudi guys.
25 "Q. Do you remember their names?
814
1 "A. I think Abdel Mejid is one of them.
2 "Q. Did he go by any other names, Abdel Mejid?
3 "A. I only know him by that name.
4 "Q. Do you know where Abdel Mejid was from?
5 "A. Saudi.
6 "Q. From Saudi. Do you know where he lived in Pakistan?
7 "A. In Peshawar.
8 "Q. Do you know who he worked for?
9 "A. For Usama Bin Laden.
10 "Q. What did he do for Usama Bin Laden?
11 A. I don't know what he worked for Usama Bin Laden.
12 "Q. Had you ever seen Abdel Mejid before Azmarai's wedding?
13 "A. Yes. I seen him a few times in Peshawar.
14 "Q. Did you see him after Azmarai's wedding?
15 "A. I don't recall that, but I probably did.
16 "Q. Do you know where Abdel Mejid is today?
17 "A. No.
18 "Q. Do you know if he is alive?
19 "A. I don't know. I never heard that he died. He is
20 probably alive.
21 "Q. Do you know if he has ever been arrested?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. Do you know where Azmarai is today?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. Where?
815
1 "A. He is in jail.
2 "Q. What country?
3 "A. I don't know. I think he is in the United States here.
4 I heard that the FBI, they arrested him.
5 "Q. For what?
6 "A. For the -- I am not certain. Probably the World Trade
7 Center bombing.
8 "Q. How did you hear about his arrest?
9 "A. News.
10 "Q. Was he arrested under the name of Azmarai?
11 "A. No, it was a different name.
12 "Q. Do you recall what name it was?
13 "A. I recall the name, the last name, it is related to a
14 country, one of those countries north of Afghanistan. Either
15 Khazakhstan or Turkestan. I recall the name, one of those
16 country's names.
17 "Q. So his name is like Khazakhstan or Turkestan?
18 "A. Yes, according to the news.
19 "Q. Do you know what his first name was?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. When was the last time you saw Azmarai?
22 "A. In '89, '89 or '90.
23 "Q. At that time you understood he was close to Bin Laden?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. Do you know a -- was anyone at the wedding name Abu
816
1 Baraa? The wedding of Azmarai?
2 "A. No.
3 "Q. Was Madani al Tayyib at the wedding?
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. Have you ever had any financial dealings with Azmarai?
6 "A. No.
7 "Q. Did you ever send him any money?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. Did you ever receive any money from him?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. Did you ever hear of anyone else sending money to
12 Azmarai?
13 "A. No.
14 "Q. Did you ever hear of Bin Laden's company giving any money
15 to Azmarai?
16 "A. No.
17 "Q. Do you know where Azmarai received his funding from?
18 "A. I would think from Usama Bin Laden.
19 "Q. Why do you say that?
20 "A. Because he was working with him.
21 "Q. Doing what?
22 "A. I don't know.
23 "Q. Did you ever see Azmarai anywhere outside of AFghanistan?
24 "A. Pakistan, you mean, Peshawar?
25 "Q. Peshawar?
817
1 "A. I only saw him in Peshawar.
2 "Q. Let me show you what is 5, 6, 7, and 8. All four have
3 the date on the exhibit sticker 9/24/97. Tell me if you
4 recognize the four people?
5 (Witness perusing photographs)
6 "A. This is Abu Hajer.
7 "Q. H-A-J-E-R?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. What nationality is he?
10 "A. Iraq.
11 "Q. Do they call him Abu Hajer al Iraqui?
12 "A. No. Just Abu.
13 "Q. Just Abu Hajer?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. Look at 6, 7 and 8.
16 (Witness perusing photographs)
17 "A. Don't recognize 6 or 7 or 8.
18 "Q. How do you know Abu Hajer?
19 "A. I knew him in Peshawar first. He was the imam of the
20 mosque.
21 "Q. And the mosque was in Peshawar?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. What year did you first meet him?
24 "A. '89, '89 or 90, last time I went to Pakistan.
25 "Q. Who was he working with at that time?
818
1 "A. With Mektab al Khidemat.
2 "Q. Where you working with Mektab al Khidemat at that time?
3 "A. '89?
4 "Q. Yes.
5 "A. No, I was working with Akl Bunyan al Marsous.
6 "Q. When did you see Abu Hajer next after 1989?
7 "A. In Sudan in 92.
8 "Q. Who was Abu Hajer working for in the Sudan in 1992?
9 "A. For Bin Laden.
10 "Q. For what company?
11 "A. Taba.
12 "Q. Taba?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. The same company you worked for?
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. And Abu Rida worked for?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. And Madani al Tayyib worked for?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. What was Abu Hajer doing for Taba?
21 "A. He was the general manager.
22 "Q. What he do as the general manager?
23 "A. Supervising the different projects that Bin Laden had in
24 Sudan.
25 "Q. Did he focus on any geographic area?
819
1 "A. Geographic area?
2 "Q. Like Europe, Asia, Africa, South America. Did he focus
3 on a particular area?
4 "A. Yes, he used to travel to the East, Indonesia, Malaysia,
5 Korea.
6 "Q. Did he go to the Philippines?
7 "A. I don't know.
8 "Q. Did Abu Hajer know Azmarai?
9 "A. I don't know, but he might have. Most probably he did
10 because they were at the same time in Peshawar.
11 "Q. Abu Hajer was close to Bin Laden?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. And Azmarai was close to Bin Laden?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. And Madani al Tayyib, when you were working in the Sudan,
16 he worked for him you said, correct? You worked for Madani al
17 Tayyib, he was your boss?
18 "A. He was my boss.
19 "Q. And you worked for Taba, as well?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. And he invited you to go leave the United States to go
22 work in the Sudan for Bin Laden's companies?
23 "A. Madani al Tayyib.
24 "Q. Did he do that in person or by telephone?
25 "A. By telephone.
820
1 "Q. What year was that Madani al Tayyib spoke to you by
2 telephone to invite you to the Sudan?
3 "A. '92.
4 "Q. Prior to that telephone call, how many times had you met
5 Madani al Tayyib?
6 "A. Probably once or twice in Peshawar, that's all.
7 "Q. Why is it you think that he knew enough about you, picked
8 up the phone and called you after meeting you only once or
9 twice to invite you to travel from the United States to the
10 design to work for Bin Laden?
11 "A. It is not him who -- it wasn't his idea. It was Bin
12 Laden's idea.
13 "Q. And why is it that Bin Laden knew so much about you that
14 he would ask Madani al Tayyib to call you in the United States
15 to invite you to the Sudan?
16 "A. He got this information from Abu Hafs. I knew Abu Hafs
17 since '83.
18 "Q. You knew Abu Hafs since '83?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. How did you meet Abu Hafs?
21 "A. I met him in Peshawar. At that time there were very few
22 foreigners in Peshawar, so that's how we knew each other.
23 "Q. Did Abu Hafs do military work for Bin Laden?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. When did he start doing military work for Bin Laden?
821
1 "A. I am not sure, but probably after the formation of al
2 Qaeda.
3 "Q. What did -- when did you leave the United States to go
4 back to the Sudan, to the Sudan?
5 "A. '92.
6 "Q. Who did you leave with?
7 "A. First I went there alone to check out the place and what
8 kind of work would it be. I stayed there for about two weeks
9 and then came back, took my family and went to Sudan.
10 "Q. Did you fly with anyone from Texas to the Sudan when you
11 went without your family?
12 A. No.
13 "Q. Where did you get the money for the ticket?
14 "A. I had the money. I was reimbursed by Madani al Tayyib
15 when I went to the Sudan.
16 "Q. Did you -- where was the travel agency that you used to
17 get the ticket?
18 "A. I think it was in Dallas, in Arlington.
19 "Q. When you got to the Sudan, at this point you had been
20 working in Pakistan with a number of people for a number of
21 years -- correct? -- by the time you went to the Sudan in
22 1992, correct? You had been to Pakistan three different
23 times?
24 "A. Right.
25 "Q. And you had already seen someone from the Services Office
822
1 in New York, Sayed Nosair, who had gone to jail for murdering
2 a rabbi, correct?
3 "A. Yes.
4 "Q. And you had said that someone left New York to come out
5 to Arizona to stay with you to check out Rashad Khalifa, and
6 shortly after Rashad Khalifa was murdered, correct?
7 "A. Yes. Well, he didn't stay with me.
8 (Continued on next page)
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
823
1 "Q. He had lunch with you?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. And Rashad khalifa was murdered, correct?
4 "A. Yes.
5 "Q. And you met Sheik Abdallah Azzam in Peshawar on your
6 various trips and he was murdered in or about 1989, correct?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. And you were invited to go to the Services Office in New
9 York in 19 -- in the early 1990s to see Mustafa Shalabi, and
10 the day you showed up he was murdered, correct?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. And you were invited to get weapons for Mr. Abouhalima,
13 who never picked them up in New York, correct?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. And then you would find out later Abouhalima would be
16 arrested for the World Trade Center bombing, correct?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. And you would see Sheik Omar in New York, correct?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. And Sheik Omar would later be arrested, correct?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. And you met Azmarai in Peshawar and went to his wedding,
23 correct?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. And he would later be arrested for terrorist acts,
824
1 correct?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. Now, you go to, you get invited to go over to the Sudan
4 to work for Bin Laden, correct?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. Did you at any time think that maybe you were going to
7 work for a terrorist organization?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. Did you believe in Jihad?
10 "A. Yes.
11 "Q. And you believed in fighting the people that were
12 perceived as the enemy of Islam, correct?
13 "A. The enemies, yes.
14 "Q. And in Afghanistan, the Soviet Union was the enemy of
15 Islam, correct?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. And you would fight against the enemies of Islam against
18 anything else, correct?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. And if someone told you that the United States was the
21 enemy of Islam, you would fight the United States, correct?
22 "A. Yes, if it is proven.
23 "Q. Was it proven?
24 "A. No.
25 "Q. You have heard Bin Laden say at least as late as the CNN
825
1 interview that the United States was the enemy of Islam,
2 correct?
3 "A. Yes.
4 "Q. And you have heard him say that before, have you not?
5 "A. No. That's the first time I heard him.
6 "Q. You never heard anyone working in Bin Laden's
7 organization talk bad about the United States before then?
8 "A. Probably heard many people saying things like that, but I
9 don't know if they were from Bin Laden's or not, organization.
10 "I don't know who is from his organization, who is
11 not, but if you are talking about people working in the Sudan,
12 there are many people.
13 "Q. You were chosen in part by Madani al Tayyib on behalf of
14 Bin Laden to work in the Sudan because you had a United States
15 passport, correct?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. And they figured with a United States passport, you could
18 travel around the world a lot more easily, correct?
19 "A. Correct.
20 "Q. That's one of the things they liked about you, correct?
21 "A. Probably.
22 "Q. And you traveled to a lot of different places, correct?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. Did you travel to Ethiopia?
25 "A. Not on business. It was transit.
826
1 "Q. There came a time in the summer of 1996 when you obtained
2 a visa to try to go to Addis Abbaba in Ethiopia, do you recall
3 that?
4 "A. It is not 1996.
5 "June '95.
6 "Q. June '95?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. You checked with your passport and that gave you the
9 correct date.
10 "Could you tell us the exact date in June 1995 when
11 you got the visa that would allow you to go from Kenya to
12 Addis Abbaba, Ethiopia, the date of the visa?
13 "A. Check the date --
14 "Q. Yes.
15 "A. -- of the visa?
16 "June '95.
17 "(Witness perusing passport.)
18 "Q. Is there a date?
19 "A. 23rd.
20 "Q. June 23rd?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. Now, did you go to Ethiopia on that occasion?
23 "A. No.
24 "Q. What was the reason that you got the visa to go to
25 Ethiopia in June of 1995?
827
1 "A. I got the visa just in case if there is any problems in
2 Kenya, I would have a place to go to without having to go and
3 obtain a visa.
4 "Q. What type of problems did you think might come up in
5 Kenya?
6 "A. Any government problems.
7 "Q. Why would the government give you a problem in Kenya?
8 "A. Not for me, this is in general.
9 "Q. Do you have a problem -- give a problem to you? You are
10 the one who was going to leave Kenya because there might be
11 problems?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. Problems for who?
14 "A. Any general problems.
15 "Q. From whom?
16 "A. Ethnic clashes, things like rioting, such things.
17 "Q. In June of 1995 there was an attempt to murder President
18 Mubarak of Egypt in Addis Abbaba in Ethiopia. Did you learn
19 about that?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. How did you learn about it?
22 "A. The news.
23 "Q. Did you ever hear about it before you heard it on the
24 news?
25 "A. No."
828
1 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I think you were going
2 to give an instruction at this point that the attempted
3 assassination is not charged in this case at all.
4 THE COURT: Yes, ladies and gentlemen, there is no
5 charge in this case that -- which relates to the attempted
6 assassination of President Mubarak of Egypt. That is not a
7 charge in this case.
8 "Q. When you worked for Bin Laden's companies, did you ever
9 meet a person by the name of Mustafa Hamza, H-A-M-Z-A?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. Have you ever heard the name Mustafa Hamza?
12 "A. Yes, the news.
13 "Q. Who is Mustafa Hamza?
14 "A. An Egyptian.
15 "Q. Why is he on the news?
16 "A. For trying to assassinate President Mubarak.
17 "Q. Did you ever hear from anyone whether or not Mustafa
18 Hamza worked for the Bin Laden companies in Khartoum during
19 the same time that you did?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. Never heard that?
22 "A. Never heard that.
23 "Q. Never read it in the paper?
24 "A. Never.
25 "Q. Never heard anyone say that Mustafa Hamza was a close
829
1 friend of Usama Bin Laden?
2 "A. I don't recall.
3 "Q. Now, you mentioned that Abu Hafs did military work for
4 Usama Bin Laden?
5 "A. Correct.
6 "Q. Did you know Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. And he fought in Afghanistan as well, correct?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. He was a very famous fighter?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. Was he also a military commander for Bin Laden?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. And did you know Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri personally?
15 "A. I met him in Peshawar once or twice.
16 "Q. In what years?
17 "A. In '89. '89 or '90.
18 "Q. How did it come about that you met Abu Ubaidah al
19 Banshiri in Peshawar?
20 "A. Through Abu Hafs.
21 "Q. Abu Hafs introduced you?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. And Abu Hafs and Usama Bin Laden, the three of them
24 together formed al Qaeda?
25 "A. Yes.
830
1 "Q. Did you ever join al Qaeda?
2 "A. No.
3 "Q. Are you sure?
4 "A. Yes.
5 "Q. Did you ever make bayat, B-A-Y-A-T, the pledge of bayat
6 to as Bin Laden?
7 "A. No.
8 "Q. Have you ever pledged bayat to anyone?
9 "A. No.
10 "Q. Do you know if Abu Hafs or Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri
11 pledged bayat to as Bin Laden?
12 "A. No, I wouldn't know.
13 "Q. Did you ever sign any contract with Bin Laden.
14 "The contract for working in Sudan for his company,
15 did you sign that?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. And you signed, and who signed on behalf of Usama Bin
18 Laden's company?
19 "A. I don't remember, but it is either Madani al Tayyib or
20 Abu Hajer.
21 "Q. Did you put your thumb print on the contract?
22 "A. No, just signature.
23 "Q. Now, when was the last time you saw Abu Ubaidah al
24 Banshiri?
25 "A. In Sudan before I left.
831
1 "Q. 1994 before you left?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. Do you know where he is today?
4 "A. Either in Sudan or in Afghanistan."
5 THE COURT: All right, let's break at this point and
6 take a mid afternoon recess.
7 (Jury not present)
8 MR. WILFORD: Excuse me, your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 MR. WILFORD: The defendants would like an
11 opportunity to pray at this point. Is that okay?
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 MR. WILFORD: Thank you.
14 (Recess)
15 THE COURT: If I could have everyone's attention. We
16 have a note from Juror 647. He'll need to take a test on
17 March 6 at 8 a.m. He is not sure of the length of the exam.
18 He gives the address. I assume that it's some type of civil
19 service exam, and the suggestion is that we start at 1:00 on
20 the March 6. Does anybody have any problem with that?
21 Is everyone here?
22 MR. COHN: No, there's nobody here for Mr. El Hage.
23 THE COURT: There is Mr. Dratel.
24 MR. RUHNKE: I don't see how anybody could have a
25 problem.
832
1 THE COURT: I don't see how anybody could have a
2 problem either.
3 All right, Mr. Dratel, on Tuesday, March 6, we're
4 going to start at 1:00 to accommodate a juror.
5 MR. COHN: Your Honor, when we're finished today, may
6 I address some scheduling issues? I don't want to bother you
7 now.
8 THE COURT: Yes. All right, is everybody here? Yes,
9 do you want to bring the jury in?
10 (Jury present)
11 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, I'll remind you of
12 this again, but you should know that our present plans are on
13 Tuesday, March 6, we'll start at 1:00. We will make
14 arrangements with the marshals in terms of transportation, but
15 we won't sit that morning.
16 All right.
17 "Q. Now, in June of '96, you went to Tanzania, correct?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. And Lake Victoria is on the border of Tanzania?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. There is a ferry that sank in the summer of 1996,
22 correct?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. A lot of people died in that accident, yes?
25 "A. Right.
833
1 "Q. And you went there shortly after the boat sank, correct?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. And you went there to look for someone, correct?
4 "A. Correct.
5 "Q. What was the name of the person you went to look for?
6 "A. Abdel Habib.
7 "Q. Abdel, A-D-E-L, H-A-B-I-B?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. Who was Adel Habib?
10 "A. He was an Egyptian with Dutch citizenship.
11 "Q. And where did you meet Adel Habib?
12 "A. I met him in Nairobi.
13 "Q. And what did Adel Habib do for work?
14 "A. He was a merchant, businessman.
15 "Q. What did he buy and sell?
16 "A. I don't know.
17 "Q. Did you ever do business with Adel Habib?
18 "A. I invited him to be in the board of directors of our
19 organization in Kenya.
20 "Q. And the name that you used for the organization in Kenya?
21 "A. Help Africa People.
22 "Q. Did he join the board of directors?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. For how long was he on the board of directors?
25 "A. Since the beginning of '95.
834
1 "Q. And after this boat sank in Lake Victoria, you went to
2 try to find Adel Habib?
3 "A. Right.
4 "Q. And you understood he was going to be on that boat?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. Was he on the boat doing work for your organization?
7 "A. No, he was on the boat, but not working for our
8 organization.
9 "Q. And were you looking for anyone else?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. Did you look for Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri when you went to
12 Lake Victoria in the summer of 1996?
13 "A. No.
14 "Q. Did anyone tell you Abu Ubaidah had drowned in that ferry
15 accident?
16 "A. No.
17 "Q. No one ever told you at any time that Abu Ubaidah drowned
18 in the summer of 1996?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. To this day has anyone ever told you from any sources
21 that Abu Ubaidah was killed in that boat in the summer of 1996
22 when it sank at Lake Victoria?
23 "A. Nobody told me.
24 "Q. Did an FBI agent tell you last night that there was a
25 report in the newspaper that Abu Ubaidah had drowned?
835
1 "A. We talked about this yesterday. I don't recall whether
2 they told me he died or not.
3 "Q. But just so we are clear, before whatever conversation
4 the FBI had with you yesterday, you had never heard from
5 anyone or seen on any T.V. show or read in any newspaper that
6 Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri had drowned in the ferry accident in
7 the summer of 1996?
8 "A. No. Never.
9 "Q. And you were not sent to that lake to try to find Abu
10 Ubaidah al Banshiri?
11 "A. No. I went looking for Adel Habib.
12 "Q. Did you ever tell anyone you went to Lake Victoria to try
13 to find Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri?
14 "A. Haroun was there.
15 "Q. Haroun was there?
16 "A. Yes. He went there first to look for Adel Habib.
17 "Q. And my question is: Did Haroun, did he go to look for
18 Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri?
19 "A. No, I don't think so.
20 "Q. Did you ever discuss with Haroun whether Abu Ubaidah al
21 Banshiri drowned in Lake Victoria?
22 "A. I don't think Haroun knows al Banshiri.
23 "Q. My question was, did you ever discuss with him, Haroun,
24 whether or not al Banshiri drowned in Lake Victoria?
25 "A. No.
836
1 "Q. So up until yesterday at no time did you have any
2 conversation with anyone ever indicating that Abu Ubaidah al
3 Banshiri drowned in that accident in the summer of '96?
4 "A. Yes.
5 "Q. Now, Haroun works for you in Nairobi, correct?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. He knows you as Abdus Sabbur, correct?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. When was the last time you saw Haroun?
10 "A. Three weeks ago when I came back to Nairobi.
11 "Q. Where did you see Haroun?
12 "A. In Nairobi.
13 "Q. Why in Nairobi?
14 "A. We met in the house of -- what's his name -- Adam Mohamed
15 Noor.
16 "Q. Adam?
17 "A. Mohamed Noor.
18 "Q. Spell the last name for us?
19 "A. N-O-O-R.
20 "Q. N-O-O-R. Why did you meet at that location?
21 "A. He called me and he said he is there with some friends of
22 Adam Mohamed Noor, he asked me to go over there.
23 "Q. And where were you when he called?
24 "A. In the house.
25 "Q. Did you go there?
837
1 "A. Yes.
2 "Q. Where is the house located?
3 "A. In South C.
4 "Q. South Sea, S-E-A?
5 "A. Yes. C. No. Just C.
6 "Q. South C, the capital letter C?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. What did you discuss with Haroun?
9 "A. He told me he wanted to go and see his mother because she
10 was sick, and he received a call from his sister saying that
11 his mother is sick and that he needed to go to Adam Noor's to
12 visit her.
13 "Q. Now, you spoke to some people in the U.S. government in
14 Kenya, correct?
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. Is this before or after you spoke to the people from the
17 U.S. government?
18 "A. After.
19 "Q. After. Did you discuss the fact that you spoke to people
20 from the U.S. government with Haroun?
21 "A. Yes, I told him.
22 "Q. Was he scared?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. Were you scared?
25 "A. No.
838
1 "Q. Now, prior to your coming back to Kenya -- by the way,
2 where did you come from when you went to Kenya?
3 "A. From Pakistan.
4 "Q. Where in Pakistan?
5 "A. I was in Karachi.
6 "Q. Did you cross into Afghanistan?
7 "A. No.
8 "Q. When you went to Pakistan just before returning to Kenya
9 for the last time, did you see Bin Laden?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. You are positive under oath?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. You took a trip to Pakistan earlier this year?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. Did you see Usama Bin Laden at that time?
16 "A. No.
17 "Q. You have taken two trips in the last year to Pakistan and
18 not seen Usama Bin Laden?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. Is your testimony under oath that Usama Bin Laden did not
21 send for you to come back to Kenya from Pakistan?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. Yes, it is your testimony that he did not send for you?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. Did you get any messages from Usama Bin Laden on either
839
1 trip when you went back to Pakistan in 1997?
2 "A. No, no messages.
3 "Q. Did he send you any letters?
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. Faxes?
6 "A. No.
7 "Q. E-mails?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. Internet messages?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. Did he tell anyone else to tell you something?
12 "A. No.
13 "Q. Did you see Abu Hafs when you went back to Pakistan in
14 1997?
15 "A. No.
16 "Q. Did you see Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri?
17 "A. No.
18 "Q. Did you see Madani al Tayyib?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. Did you read in the newspaper in early August of 1997
21 that Madani al Tayyib was now in Saudi Arabia?
22 "A. I didn't read it, I was told about it in Kenya.
23 "Q. What were you told?
24 "A. That he is back in Saudi Arabia.
25 "Q. And were you told anything else about what was being
840
1 reported in the newspaper as to where Madani al Tayyib was and
2 what he was doing?
3 "A. He was in Britain, in London.
4 "Q. Doing what?
5 "A. I don't know.
6 "Q. Were you told that there was newspaper reports that
7 Madani al Tayyib was talking to the government authorities in
8 Saudi Arabia and sharing the information with the British and
9 American authorities? Did you hear that?
10 "A. Yes, I heard that.
11 "Q. And Madani al Tayyib was someone very close to Bin Laden,
12 correct?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. And he used to be your boss, correct?
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. Were you worried when you heard that Madani al Tayyib was
17 now talking?
18 "A. Worried for my position in Kenya because I didn't want
19 the Kenyan authorities to know that I was in Sudan before.
20 That's the only worry I had.
21 "Q. Why were you worried about the Kenyan authorities knowing
22 that you came from the Sudan?
23 "A. I was trying to keep this secret in Kenya when I was
24 registering the organization because the relations weren't
25 very good between Kenya and Sudan, and the Sudanese
841
1 government.
2 "Q. Who told you about the reports in the newspaper that
3 Madani al Tayyib was cooperating with various governments?
4 "A. One of the Kenyans. One of the Kenyan people. I don't
5 recall the name.
6 "Q. Did you talk to anyone else about it?
7 "A. No.
8 "Q. Did you talk to Haroun about it?
9 "A. Maybe I did. Probably. I am not sure.
10 "Q. Madani al Tayyib was your boss for two years in the
11 Sudan, correct?
12 "A. Correct.
13 "Q. You read or heard that in the newspaper it is reported
14 that he is now talking to Saudi, British and American
15 authorities, correct?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. Haroun works for you, you are very close, correct?
18 "A. Right.
19 "Q. You don't know if you turned to Haroun just last month
20 and said, gee, my boss is talking to the Saudi, British and
21 American authorities. You can't remember if you discussed
22 that?
23 "A. Haroun has nothing to do with Madani al Tayyib. I am
24 saying I don't remember whether I talked to him or not because
25 I only saw him once when Madani came and talked to me. Haroun
842
1 saw him then in my office.
2 "So they don't know each other. Haroun doesn't have
3 to know -- I don't recall ever telling Haroun that Tayyib was
4 my boss.
5 "Q. Madani al Tayyib has a bad leg, right?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Which leg is bad?
8 "A. I can't remember now. It has been more than two years
9 since I saw him last.
10 "Q. He is amputated below the knee?
11 "A. Right.
12 "Q. And he goes by the name Abu Fadel al Makkee?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. That means he is from Mecca, correct?
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. And people refer to him as the crippled one or the lame
17 one?
18 "A. I don't recall anyone calling him like that.
19 "Q. Now, when Haroun learned that Madani al Tayyib was
20 talking to the various authorities, he removed files from your
21 house; isn't that correct?
22 "A. Files from the computer?
23 "Q. Files from the computer and physical files from your
24 house while you were in Pakistan, correct?
25 "A. Yes, right.
843
1 "Q. When you met at your friend's house, the friend you told
2 us about, he had those files there, correct? He wanted to
3 know what to do with those files, correct?
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. What did he do with the files he removed from your house?
6 "A. He put them in a different office.
7 "Q. Which office did he put them in?
8 "A. The Mercy International.
9 "Q. Where is the Mercy International office located at?
10 "A. In Nairobi, the South C.
11 "Q. In South C?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. How far is it from your office or your building?
14 "A. It is about 20 minutes' drive.
15 "Q. And why did Haroun remove files from your office and
16 bring them to Mercy International? Because he learned that
17 Madani al Tayyib was talking? Did he tell you why he took the
18 files out?
19 "A. When I asked, I didn't know why he did that. When I
20 asked him, he said it was afraid -- well, in fact, it had the
21 different letters written between my office and Sudan because
22 the people that I dealt with in Sudan after I moved to Kenya,
23 they were dealing with me and different business issues.
24 "Q. You told this Grand Jury five minutes ago you didn't
25 remember whether or not you talked to Haroun about the report
844
1 in the newspaper about Madani al Tayyib cooperating with the
2 various authorities. Now you are telling this Grand Jury he
3 has a very detailed conversation with you explaining why it is
4 he removed files.
5 "You understand you can go to jail for five years a
6 hit every time you tell a lie to this Grand Jury.
7 "Do you understand that?
8 "A. I understand. I don't think I contradicted what I said
9 before.
10 "Q. You had a conversation, did you not, with Haroun?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. About Madani al Tayyib talking, correct?
13 "A. We did not discuss about Madani al Tayyib.
14 "Q. He just happened to pick that day to remove the files
15 from your office when your boss starts talking?
16 "A. When he heard about Madani al Tayyib speaking and he knew
17 that Madani al Tayyib was in Sudan, he thought that -- he just
18 got scared and he decided to take any files that we had
19 transactions with the Sudan.
20 "Q. Did he show you the files?
21 "A. No.
22 "Q. What did he ask you about what to do with the files?
23 "A. He didn't ask me what to do with it. He just told me he
24 left it with the Mercy International.
25 "Q. Did you then go to the offices of Mercy International to
845
1 look at the files?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. Where were they?
4 "A. I couldn't find them. They said he left them with the
5 guard and the guard went to his village.
6 "Q. And he took the files?
7 "A. No. They don't know where he put the files.
8 "Q. Did you make any efforts to try and track down where the
9 files were?
10 "A. Yes. We tried to call him where he lived for three, four
11 days, until we finally got him. He said he gave it to someone
12 else.
13 "Q. The guard gave the files to someone else?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. Why did the guard give the files to someone else?
16 "A. Because he was leaving. Someone who was working at the
17 Mercy International.
18 "Q. So left them at the office with a different person?
19 "A. No. We found out that this different person, he took
20 them to his house.
21 "Q. What is the name of the different person who has your
22 files in his house?
23 "A. Ahmed Sheik.
24 "Q. Ahmed?
25 "A. Yes.
846
1 "Q. Do you know Ahmed Sheik?
2 "A. I do.
3 "Q. How do you know Ahmed Sheik?
4 "A. I met him in Nairobi.
5 "Q. Where does he live?
6 "A. In South C.
7 "Q. In South C. When you learned that Ahmed Sheik had your
8 files in his house, did you go to see Ahmed Sheik?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. Did you find the files?
11 "A. No. He went to Dubai.
12 "Q. He left on a trip to Dubai?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. Do you know where your files are?
15 "A. Probably still at his place now.
16 "Q. Do you know why Ahmed Sheik left on a trip to Dubai?
17 "A. Business.
18 "Q. What kind of business?
19 "A. Purchasing things, clothes, garments and these things.
20 "Q. Does Ahmed Sheik have a wife?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. Did she look around the house for the files when you went
23 over there?
24 "A. She wasn't there. He took her to their family before he
25 left because he was going there for about a month.
847
1 "Q. Was anyone home when you went by Ahmed Sheik's house?
2 "A. I didn't go to his house. I was told at the Mercy
3 International that he is not in his house and there is no use
4 going there, so we didn't even try to go there.
5 "Q. As you understood it now, your files, you believe, are in
6 Ahmed Sheik's house in Nairobi?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. Waiting for him to come back from Dubai?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. Where does Ahmed Sheik live?
11 "A. In South C.
12 "Q. It is a big place, South C. What street?
13 "A. I don't know the street. I can describe it.
14 "Q. Okay. Go ahead.
15 "A. Mention the names, directions?
16 "Q. You want to draw a map?
17 "A. I can do that.
18 "ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY: We will mark this
19 as Grand Jury Exhibit 10.
20 "(Witness drawing.)
21 "A. I think this is as close, here, or I should have left
22 this space here, so I continued here.
23 "Q. Okay. So the map that we will mark as 10, if you go down
24 Mombasso Road to the bridge.
25 "Do you know the name of the bridge?
848
1 "A. It is the only bridge there. It goes over to Mombasso
2 Road.
3 "Q. The bridge over the Mombasso Road. If you go down that
4 road to Zanzibar Road?
5 "A. Yes, the name of the road is Zanzibar.
6 "Q. And do you know the name of the road that it intersects
7 near with Ahmed Sheik's house?
8 "A. No. The house is, it is very close to the end. It is
9 not the corner. I think there is another four houses here.
10 The fourth one.
11 "Q. And that is when Zanzibar Road stops?
12 "A. It stops here, yes.
13 "Q. It is a dead end there?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. So if you went down Zanzibar Road to the very end, four
16 houses back on the road would be Ahmed Sheik's house?
17 "A. Right. I think if you ask anyone, they will tell you.
18 "Q. Okay. Is Ahmed Sheik well-known?
19 "A. Yes. In his area and at the Mercy International.
20 "Q. What is in those files?
21 "A. There is phone call bills, statements.
22 "Q. Phone bills?
23 "A. Phone bills, yeah, phone statements, and like I said, the
24 other, what do you call them, the other correspondence between
25 me and the people in Sudan.
849
1 "Q. Does it include correspondence with Usama Bin Laden?
2 "A. No, no correspondence with him.
3 "Q. How about with Madani al Tayyib?
4 "A. It could be a few there now.
5 "Q. Audiotapes in the files, audiotapes?
6 "A. No.
7 "Q. Have you ever had any audiotapes of Usama Bin Laden's
8 voice?
9 "A. Yes, once.
10 "Q. When?
11 "A. I think in the 90's.
12 "Q. What was Usama Bin Laden saying on the audiotape that you
13 had?
14 "A. He was speaking about the Jihad in Afghanistan.
15 "Q. And did he talk about America in the tape?
16 "A. No.
17 "Q. Did he talk about the Saudi regime in the tape?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Have you heard of any other recent tapes of Usama Bin
20 Laden talking about Jihad?
21 "A. No.
22 "Q. Have you heard about a declaration that Usama Bin Laden
23 issued last August from Hindu Kush in Afghanistan?
24 "A. A declaration?
25 "Q. A declaration of Jihad?
850
1 "A. I don't recall.
2 "Q. You worked for Usama Bin Laden for several years,
3 correct?
4 "A. Two years.
5 "Q. Two years. But he was the guy that paid your salary,
6 correct?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. He called you to go to Slovakia to get the extra machine
9 parts, correct?
10 "A. Exactly.
11 "Q. And he is a pretty famous figure in that part of the
12 world, correct? Very famous person?
13 "A. In where?
14 "Q. In Africa, in the Middle East, in Pakistan, in
15 Afghanistan?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. And you don't know whether or not he issued a declaration
18 of Jihad last summer, August, September of 1996?
19 "A. I don't know. No.
20 "Q. You didn't talk to anyone about it?
21 "A. No. No one told me about it.
22 "Q. You didn't talk to anyone at any meetings about what
23 people thought of the declaration of Jihad?
24 "A. No.
25 "Q. Who is Taysir, T-A-Y-S-I-R?
851
1 "A. Tyson?
2 "Q. Taysir, T-A-Y-S-I-R. Taysir, the Egyptian?
3 "A. I don't know Taysir.
4 "Q. Did you ever write a report with a guy named Taysir?
5 "A. No.
6 "Q. Who is Al Utaybi, U-T-A-Y-B-I, Al Utaybi, do you know
7 him?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. Do you know the engineer Al Qattab? Do you know the
10 engineer Al Q-A-T-T-A-B?
11 "(No response.)
12 "Who is Abu Ibrahim in the Sudan?
13 "A. He is an Iraqi.
14 "Q. How do you know Abu Ibrahim?
15 "A. He was the manager of the construction company.
16 "Q. What is the name of the construction company?
17 "A. Al Hijra.
18 "Q. And have you ever spoken to Abu Ibrahim about Usama Bin
19 Laden's statements on CNN or any other statements about
20 America in the last two years?
21 "A. Yes, I did.
22 "Q. What did you say and what did Abu Ibrahim say?
23 A. He told me, he told me he saw, he saw Bin Laden on CNN in
24 the CNN interview. He said that he mentioned things -- now I
25 recall. Ibrahim told me.
852
1 "Q. What did he tell you?
2 "A. He didn't say any declaration of war or Jihad, he said
3 that he mentioned, he did not specify what was it. But he
4 said he mentioned things he should not speak about at this
5 time.
6 "Now I recall that phone call.
7 "Q. Abu Ibrahim said that Bin Laden mentioned things that he
8 should not speak about at this time?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. Just so we understand the meaning of what you are saying,
11 was Abu Ibrahim saying Usama Bin Laden said certain things
12 that should not be talked about, or was Abu Ibrahim saying
13 that Bin Laden was speaking too openly?
14 "A. What I understood is that he said things that does not
15 serve his purpose right now.
16 "Q. So Ibrahim was disagreeing with whether or not Usama Bin
17 Laden should have said the things that he did say?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. Was Abu Ibrahim disagreeing because Ibrahim didn't agree
20 with Usama Bin Laden or because he didn't think Bin Laden
21 should say it out loud?
22 "A. I don't know what he meant, but what came to my mind then
23 is that Usama Bin Laden said things that should not be said at
24 that time because it makes him look, it doesn't make him look
25 good in front of people who are looking at him as an example.
853
1 He did not specify what -- because it was a telephone
2 conversation.
3 "Q. Where was Abu Ibrahim when you had the conversation?
4 "A. Sudan.
5 "Q. Where were you?
6 "A. Kenya.
7 "Q. Who called whom?
8 "A. I called him.
9 "Q. Why did you call him?
10 "A. There were merchants in Sudan that wanted some ostriches
11 from Kenya, and he kept asking me to send pictures and
12 information about ostriches and export ostriches, and all of a
13 sudden he quit. I tried to call him, but there were no
14 connections, so I called Abu Ibrahim and told him to send, to
15 ask him to call me.
16 "So then Abu Ibrahim talked to me about this. He
17 said, did you hear this thing on CNN?
18 "I said, no. He said he was on CNN and he said
19 things that are not supposed to be said.
20 "Q. Did you speak to anyone else about Bin Laden's statements
21 on CNN or elsewhere in the media?
22 "A. No. I don't remember.
23 "Q. Did you speak to Abu Khadija about Bin Laden in the last
24 three months?
25 "A. I spoke to Abu Khadija, but he didn't speak to.
854
1 "Q. In what country is Abu Khadija in today?
2 "A. Germany.
3 "Q. He is also known as Abu Khadija al Iraqi?
4 "A. You could say that, but it is not famous.
5 "Q. Where in Germany does he live?
6 "A. He was in Heidelberg. I don't know where is he now,
7 which city exactly.
8 "Q. Does Abu Khadija also work for Bin Laden?
9 "A. He used to work in the Sudan.
10 "Q. Until when?
11 "A. I don't know, but when I left he was still there. I
12 think till about six months ago or a bit more. I am not sure.
13 "Q. Did you talk to Abu Khadija about Madani al Tayyib
14 cooperating with the government authorities?
15 "A. He told me that.
16 "Q. Was he worried?
17 "A. Yes, same thing, because he didn't want the people to
18 know he was in Sudan before.
19 "Q. Who else told you about Madani al Tayyib speaking to
20 government authorities?
21 "A. I don't recall anyone else.
22 "Q. Haroun told you, right?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. Abu Khadija told you?
25 "A. Right.
855
1 "Q. Did you speak to anyone in London about Madani al Tayyib
2 cooperating?
3 "A. No.
4 "Q. Do you know Khalid al Fawwaz?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. Is he in London?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. Does he work for Usama Bin Laden?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. How long do you know Khalid al Fawwaz?
11 "A. Since '95 when I visited London.
12 "Q. When in 1995 did you visit London?
13 "A. December '95.
14 "Q. Who did you go with?
15 "A. Alone.
16 "Q. Who paid for your trip?
17 "A. I paid for my trip.
18 "Q. Out of your own personal funds?
19 "A. Excuses me?
20 "Q. Out of your personal funds?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. Did you receive any reimbursement from Usama Bin Laden?
23 "A. No. It was a business trip for my own.
24 "Q. Did you meet Khalid al Fawwaz at that time?
25 "A. Yes, I stayed one night at his place.
856
1 "Q. Is that the first time you met Khalid al Fawwaz?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. Did you give him any money?
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. Did he give you any money?
6 "A. Yes. I was coming to the States and I was short about 70
7 pounds for the tickets, so he gave me that.
8 "Q. Other than on that occasion, have you ever had any
9 financial transactions with Khalid al Fawwaz?
10 "A. No, never.
11 "Q. And what kind of work does Khalid al Fawwaz do for Usama
12 Bin Laden?
13 "A. He is the spokesman for him in London.
14 "Q. How do you know that?
15 "A. He told me.
16 "Q. Khalid al Fawwaz told you he is a spokesperson for Usama
17 Bin Laden?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. Did you ever discuss Khalid al Fawwaz with Usama Bin
20 Laden himself?
21 "A. No.
22 "Q. Who is brother Sharif?
23 "A. Brother Sharif? I don't know anyone by that name.
24 "Q. You are sure?
25 "A. There is Mohamed Sharif.
857
1 "Q. Where does Mohamed Sharif live?
2 "A. I knew him in Louisiana in '83 and then I met him again
3 in Arizona, and then finally last time I saw him was in
4 California.
5 "Q. How about Brother Sharif in Pakistan?
6 "A. Brother Sharif, I don't know anyone by that name in
7 Pakistan.
8 "Q. Or Brother Sharif in Afghanistan?
9 "A. Not even in Afghanistan.
10 "Q. Who is Al Fadhl Kahn, F-A-D-H-L, K-A-H-N?
11 "A. Fadhl Kahn? I can't recall the name.
12 "Q. Does Haroun use the name Al Fadhl Kahn?
13 "A. No. Haroun's last name is Fazl.
14 "Q. Does he ever go by the name Al Fadhl Kahn?
15 "A. Not that I know.
16 "Q. You said before you did not see Usama Bin Laden the last
17 two trips you made to Pakistan?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. Did you go there intending to see him?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. Did you tell anyone that you planned to see him in
22 Pakistan and Afghanistan?
23 "A. No.
24 "Q. Did you tell anyone that you did see him in Afghanistan
25 and Pakistan?
858
1 "A. No.
2 "Q. Did anyone tell you that Usama Bin Laden wanted to see
3 you in Afghanistan or Pakistan?
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. Did you hear anyone at any time indicate even a rumor
6 that you had gone to see Usama Bin Laden in Afghanistan or
7 Pakistan?
8 "A. A rumor.
9 "Q. Did anyone come up to you and say, gee, I heard you saw
10 Usama Bin Laden in Afghanistan or Pakistan?
11 "A. No. Nobody.
12 "Q. So, as far as you know, there is no reason for anyone to
13 be saying you went to see Usama Bin Laden in Afghanistan or
14 Pakistan?
15 "A. That is true.
16 "Q. When you were in the Sudan, did you ever go to a farm
17 near Soba near the hospital?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. Did you see military training taking place there?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. Did you ever see any firearms being fired at a camp
22 nearby Soba?
23 "A. No.
24 "Q. Did the farm belong to Usama Bin Laden?
25 "A. Yes.
859
1 "Q. Did you ever hear of Usama Bin Laden having any training
2 camps in the Sudan?
3 "A. I heard rumors, but I was sure he didn't have any.
4 "Q. Where did you hear he did have training camps in the
5 Sudan?
6 "A. In Sudan.
7 "Q. It is a big country. Where in the Sudan?
8 "A. In Khartoum.
9 "Q. Where in Khartoum?
10 "A. Probably where I lived, at the company where I went. It
11 is just people talking about that.
12 "Q. Did you ever see any camps in the Sudan that belonged to
13 Usama Bin Laden or where any weapons or explosives were
14 stored, used or being practiced on?
15 "A. No, never. I know for a fact that the Sudanese
16 government, they wouldn't let him open any camps there.
17 "Q. Have you ever been to Iran?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Who is Amjed, Abu Amjed?
20 "A. He is a Saudi who was working for Bin Laden in Saudi
21 Arabia.
22 "Q. How many times have you met with Abu Amjed?
23 "A. Probably once or twice in Sudan.
24 "Q. And where did you meet him?
25 "A. At the office of the company's office in Khartoum.
860
1 "Q. What was he doing there?
2 "A. Business for Bin Laden.
3 "Q. What kind of business? Business is sort of vague.
4 "A. I don't know for sure, but what I thought is that
5 probably bringing reports for Saudi Arabia of his businesses
6 over there.
7 "Q. How many times in your life have you seen Usama Bin
8 Laden?
9 "A. About ten times.
10 "Q. Have you ever met alone with Usama Bin Laden?
11 "A. Yes. Whenever we discussed business, yes, we were alone.
12 "Q. Did you ever do military work for Usama Bin Laden?
13 "A. No.
14 "Q. Did you ever bring money from one country to another for
15 Usama Bin Laden?
16 "A. No.
17 "Q. Did he ever have you transport money within the Sudan to
18 give to other people?
19 "A. Within Sudan?
20 "Q. Yes.
21 "A. No.
22 "Q. Is Usama Bin Laden sometimes referred to as the Hajj,
23 H-A-J-J?
24 "A. Sometimes.
25 "Q. And is that a sign of respect and affection?
861
1 "A. Yes.
2 "Q. What other names is he known by besides Usama Bin Laden
3 and the Hajj?
4 "A. The big boss.
5 "Q. The big boss?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Do you know Abu Yasser al Masry?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. Do you know an Abu Yasser, an Egyptian fellow who lost
10 part of his hand?
11 "A. No. I don't know any Yasser, an Egyptian.
12 "Q. Have you heard of Abu Yasser even in the newspapers?
13 "A. No.
14 "Q. Do you know what the Gamaat is, G-A-M-A-A-T, the Islamic
15 group?
16 "A. Gamaat.
17 "Q. That is the organization headed by the Sheik Omar Abdel
18 Rahman?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. Have you ever heard of Abu Yasser being a person who
21 leads the Islamic group for Dr. Omar Abdel Rahman?
22 "A. No. I never knew who was leading them.
23 "Q. Who is Mr. Atef, A-T-E-F?
24 "A. Atef? He is my in-law in Qatar.
25 "Q. Who does he work for?
862
1 "A. I think he has his own business in Qatar.
2 "Q. How long has he lived in Qatar?
3 "A. Long time. His parents were there before.
4 "Q. Did he ever work for Bin Laden?
5 "A. No.
6 "Q. Is Abu Hafs also known as Mr. Atef? Abu Hafs al Masry al
7 Khabir?
8 "A. Abu Hafs? Not that I know.
9 "Q. Who is Ahmed Madubi?
10 "A. I remember the name. I can't recall the guy. I can't
11 recall.
12 "Q. Do you know any people working for Bin Laden in
13 California?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. Have you --
16 "A. I don't know who is working for Bin Laden except the ones
17 I met in Sudan.
18 "Q. Who is Norman?
19 "A. I don't know.
20 "Q. Have you maintained contact with anyone in the Sudan --
21 in California?
22 "A. Contact?
23 "Q. Do you keep in touch with anyone in California?
24 "A. I have my sister there.
25 "Q. Other than your sister?
863
1 "A. Through the years back, few years, Sayyid al Sharif, he
2 was in California. I can't recall anyone else.
3 "Q. So we are clear, who is Um Abdullah?
4 "A. My wife.
5 "Q. When you were in Texas, did you know a place known as Big
6 Five Hamburgers?
7 "A. Big Five Hamburgers? No, I don't remember the name.
8 "Q. The Sonic Drive-In?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. Did you ever go to the Sonic Drive-In?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. How often?
13 "A. Maybe five, ten times.
14 "Q. And so it is obvious, what is the Sonic Drive-In?
15 "A. A fast food place.
16 "Q. Did you know any of the people who worked at Sonic
17 Drive-In?
18 "A. Yes, the owner.
19 "Q. What is the owner's name?
20 "A. I can't remember.
21 "Q. Man or woman?
22 "A. A man.
23 "Q. And what is his background? Where is he from?
24 "A. Palestinian.
25 "Q. And is he married?
864
1 "A. Yes.
2 "Q. Where is his wife from?
3 "A. She is American.
4 "Q. Native born American?
5 "A. I have never seen her, but I know he is married to an
6 American.
7 "Q. Do you know his first name, the owner of Sonic Drive-In?
8 "A. I can't remember. I can find out.
9 "Q. Would you recognize it if you heard it?
10 "A. Most probably, yes.
11 "Q. When was the last time you saw the owner of the Sonic
12 Drive-In?
13 "A. In Hajj in '95.
14 "Q. In Saudi Arabia?
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. And he came to make the pilgrimage in 1995?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. Did you make the pilgrimage at the same time?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. Did you see him -- when was the last time before the Hajj
21 in 1995 that you saw the owner of the Sonic Drive-In?
22 "A. I think in 1992 before I left Arlington.
23 "Q. And what month did you leave Arlington in 1992?
24 "A. Either April or June.
25 "Q. Did anyone travel with you on the plane?
865
1 "A. Other than my family, I don't remember anyone.
2 "Q. Do you know an Eyad Zubidat, Z-U-B-I-D-A-T?
3 "A. Eyad?
4 "Q. Eyad Zubidat.
5 "A. I don't know anyone by that name.
6 "Q. Do you know an Omar Obaid, O-B-A-I-D?
7 "A. Omar Obaid? I think it is a guy who was in Sudan.
8 "Q. Did you know any Omar Obaid in Texas?
9 "A. I don't remember anyone by that name.
10 "Q. Did you know -- sorry?
11 "A. Not in Texas.
12 "Q. Did you know an Ahmed Ajaj?
13 "A. Ahmed Ajaj, no.
14 "Q. Did you know Eyad Ismoil?
15 "A. No.
16 "Q. Did you know an Eyad Ismoil Najeem?
17 "A. No.
18 "Q. Did you know an Ibrahim Ahmed?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. A-H-M-A-D Suliman, S-U-L-I-M-A-N?
21 "A. No.
22 "Q. Did you know Mike A-B-U-K-H-D-I-R?
23 "A. No.
24 "Q. Did you ever have any business dealings with the owner of
25 the Sonic Drive-In?
866
1 "A. No, never had any business.
2 "Q. Did you ever travel anywhere with him?
3 "A. No.
4 "Q. Did you ever meet any of the people who worked at the
5 Sonic Drive-In?
6 "A. I don't remember who was working. I talked to them
7 whenever I went there. I can't remember any of them right
8 now.
9 "Q. How far from the Sonic Drive-In did you live?
10 "A. About 15 minutes' drive.
11 "Q. When is the last time you saw -- have you seen the owner
12 of the Sonic Drive-In since the time of Hajj in 1995?
13 "A. I visited Arlington in '96. I don't remember seeing him.
14 "Q. Have you talked to anyone that you know who has already
15 appeared before a Grand Jury in New York concerning these
16 matters?
17 "A. No.
18 "Q. Have you heard reports of anyone else who has testified
19 before a grand jury in New York concerning these matters?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. When was the last time you had a financial transaction
22 with Usama Bin Laden?
23 "A. Either June or July of this year.
24 "Q. June or July of this year?
25 "A. Yes.
867
1 "Q. Why was it that you had a financial transaction in June
2 or July of this year with Usama Bin Laden?
3 "A. It is not, it is Abu Ibrahim. Whenever he talked to me
4 that day over the phone, I asked him if he can send some money
5 because before I left Sudan I talked to Abu Ibrahim and I told
6 him we are going to open our own organization and if he can
7 donate anything.
8 "He said, okay, whenever you need some money for any
9 project, then just call me in the Sudan and I will see what I
10 can send you. So when I talked to Abu Ibrahim, told him that
11 we needed $10,000 for a project.
12 "Q. What was the project?
13 "A. Malaria control project in --
14 "Q. What control?
15 "A. Malaria control.
16 "Q. Oh, malaria control project?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. Did you get the money from him?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. How much was it?
21 "A. $10,000.
22 "Q. Who was it sent to?
23 "A. To my account in Vienna.
24 "Q. That is the Girocredit Bank in Vienna?
25 "A. Yes.
868
1 "Q. That account is still open?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. That was the account in your name which was used to
4 purchase things for Bin Laden?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. Why did you keep the account open if you stopped working
7 for Bin Laden in 1994?
8 "A. Because he was still going to import more and more
9 equipment and more spare parts for his equipment in Sudan.
10 "Q. Do you have any other bank accounts open on behalf of Bin
11 Laden anywhere else in the world?
12 "A. No.
13 "Q. Where do you have your own bank accounts?
14 "A. In Kenya.
15 "Q. How many bank accounts do you have there?
16 "A. Just one.
17 "Q. And what bank is that at?
18 "A. Girobank."
19 THE COURT: Suppose we stop there and we'll pick it
20 up on Tuesday morning. Have a pleasant weekend, pleasant
21 holiday, stay well, and we'll see you on Tuesday.
22 (Jury not present)
23 THE COURT: I'm available in chambers tomorrow
24 anytime between 9 and 12 if there is any matter anybody wants
25 to take up with me. I am available in chambers tomorrow any
869
1 time between 9 and 12 noon if there is anything that anybody
2 wants to take up with me. I'm particularly anxious to
3 resolve, if at all possible, any matters which will be over
4 proceedings on Tuesday or with respect to the next witnesses.
5 Otherwise, we're adjourned until Tuesday morning.
6 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you.
7 (Adjourned to 10:00 a.m. on February 20, 2001)
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2 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS
3 Exhibit No. Received
4 401, 402, and 403D,
5 H, L, M, N, O, P, Q, Z, AE and AG,
6 and 405, 409 and 410..............................720
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