20 February 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of
New York; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 7 of the trial.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm
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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
4 v. S(7) 98 Cr. 1023
5 USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,
6 Defendants.
7 ------------------------------x
8
New York, N.Y.
9 February 20, 2001
9:50 a.m.
10
11
12 Before:
13 HON. LEONARD B. SAND,
14 District Judge
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1 APPEARANCES
2 MARY JO WHITE
United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
BY: PATRICK FITZGERALD
4 KENNETH KARAS
PAUL BUTLER
5 Assistant United States Attorneys
6
ANTHONY L. RICCO
7 EDWARD D. WILFORD
CARL J. HERMAN
8 SANDRA A. BABCOCK
Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh
9
FREDRICK H. COHN
10 DAVID P. BAUGH
LAURA GASIOROWSKI
11 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali
12 DAVID STERN
DAVID RUHNKE
13 Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed
14
SAM A. SCHMIDT
15 JOSHUA DRATEL
KRISTIAN K. LARSEN
16 Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage
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1 (Trial resumed)
2 THE COURT: Before I bring in the jury, is there any
3 matter that has to be taken up?
4 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, I just want to express to
5 the court and the government what I plan to do in
6 cross-examination related to possible classified documents. I
7 don't think that the cross-examination itself is going to be
8 an issue, but the answers of the witness may present issues,
9 and I want to present that to the court. I set forth my
10 position in my letter last week.
11 THE COURT: You are alerting the court to your
12 reservation of a right subsequent to the conclusion of the
13 cross-examination of the witness to renew applications with
14 respect to discovery or declassification of material that you
15 have been furnished? Is that your concern?
16 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, I don't know that it would
17 be appropriate to call it reserving my rights under it. I
18 raised this issue before. I plan to go into some questions,
19 and I think that that already entails some CIPA issues, and I
20 want to make sure that there is no violation of CIPA by my
21 questioning.
22 THE COURT: When the parties were last before the
23 court, which I believe was last Thursday morning, I restated
24 very explicitly what I believed the procedures to be with
25 respect to cross-examination of the witness and any reference
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1 to material which the government stated was classified. You
2 have read those.
3 MR. SCHMIDT: Yes.
4 THE COURT: Very well. We will proceed on that
5 basis, and if you have an application to make after you have
6 completed your cross and before resumption of redirect, if
7 there is to be any redirect, I will give you an opportunity to
8 address the court.
9 (Jury present)
10 THE COURT: Good morning. I hope you all enjoyed
11 your holiday weekend. You recall we are in the midst of the
12 reading of the grand jury questioning of the defendant El
13 Hage, and we will resume.
14 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, we are starting at page
15 167, line 9.
16 "Q. Have you ever been to Somalia?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. Have you ever brought any money to Somalia?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. Do you know Abu Talha, T-A-L-H-A-A, Sudani?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. How do you know Abu Talha a Sudani?
23 "A. He was working also in the same company in Sudan.
24 "Q. What did he do for Bin Laden's company in the Sudan?
25 "A. Different jobs. He was a driver and he was marketing
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1 inside Sudan for the different products.
2 "Q. And did he fight in Afghanistan?
3 "A. I don't remember. I don't know.
4 "Q. Did he do any military work for Bin Laden?
5 "A. I don't know.
6 "Q. Do you know if Abu Talha a Sudani knew Azmarai?
7 "A. I don't know.
8 "Q. Did he know Abu Hajer?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. How do you know Abu Talha knew Abu Hajer?
11 "A. We all were in the same company at the same time in
12 Khartoum.
13 "Q. Did you work on the same floor?
14 "A. It is only one floor.
15 "Q. Did Abu Talha ever go to Somalia, to your knowledge?
16 "A. I don't know.
17 "Q. Did you ever hear about Abu Talha going to Somalia?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Did you ever hear anyone indicate that Usama Bin Laden
20 was responsible for the US military people killed in Somalia
21 in 1993?
22 "A. In his last statement on the CNN, he said so.
23 "Q. Did you ever hear anyone else indicate that before?
24 "A. No.
25 "Q. Did you ever know if Abu Talha ever went to the
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1 Philippines?
2 "A. No.
3 "Q. Did you ever go to the Philippines?
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. Did you ever move weapons from one country to another?
6 "A. No.
7 "Q. Outside the United States, had you ever moved weapons
8 within a country?
9 "A. No.
10 "Q. Even a gun?
11 "A. Even a gun.
12 "Q. You carried a gun in Pakistan, right?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. You carried a gun in Afghanistan?
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. Did you carry guns anywhere else?
17 "A. In the States, in Arizona.
18 "Q. How about the Sudan?
19 "A. No, never.
20 "Q. Have you ever carried explosives anywhere in the world?
21 "A. No.
22 "Q. Have you ever paid money to someone, understanding that
23 the money was being used for explosives?
24 "A. No.
25 "Q. You had a financial transaction with Bin Laden in the
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1 summer. When was the last financial transaction you had with
2 Bin Laden before the money he sent to you for the malaria
3 control project?
4 "A. There was only two times that he sent money. One time it
5 was $7,000, and this last time was $10,000.
6 "Q. And what did he send you the $7,000 for?
7 "A. Also a project.
8 "Q. And what project was that?
9 "A The needy people in Mombasa.
10 "Q. In Mombasa?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. Who was the person -- did you take the money from Bin
13 Laden and give it to the needy people in Mombasa?
14 "A. It was transferred to my account in Kenya.
15 "Q. Then what did you do with the money?
16 "A. Transferred it for the needy people in Mombasa.
17 "Q. And who did you transfer it to?
18 "A. I went myself, me and Haroun, we went to Mombasa.
19 Q. And so you got a wire transfer from Usama Bin Laden to
20 your bank account in Kenya for $7,000 and then you took the
21 cash out?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. And brought it to Mombasa?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. Who did you give it to in Mombasa?
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1 "A. The needy people at the special event, Islamic event.
2 "Q. Even needy people have names. Do you have a name? You
3 gave it to someone.
4 "A. Didn't give it to one individual.
5 "Q. You handed it out?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Who were the partisans in Mombasa?
8 "A. Excuse me?
9 "Q. The partisans in Mombasa?
10 "A The partisans? I am sorry, I don't know what does that
11 mean. What does the word mean?
12 "Q. Were there people fighting in Mombasa?
13 "A. Fighting? No.
14 "Q. Have there been recent attacks in Mombasa against
15 tourists on the beach?
16 "A. No, not against tourists.
17 "Q. Who were the attacks against?
18 "A. It was ethnic fighting.
19 "Q. And who was fighting in the ethnic fighting in Mombasa?
20 "A. I don't know who was it. The government doesn't know.
21 Just says that bandits were attacking certain localities and
22 killing people. They don't even know what is the motive
23 behind it.
24 "Q. And when was it that you brought the $7,000 down to
25 Mombasa?
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1 "A. Sometime in 1996. I can't recall.
2 "Q. You just brought $7,000 in what currency?
3 "A. Kenyan shillings.
4 "Q. Kenyan shillings?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. How did you hand it out? People showed up and you --
7 "A. Haroun knows the needy localities, and when went to
8 distribute it. Special --
9 "Q Sorry?
10 "A. It is a special.
11 "Q. And the end of Ramadan?
12 "A. In Ramadan, and we have two times every year.
13 "Q. Did you keep a record of who you gave the money to?
14 "A. No. Just depended on Haroun is known by the people over
15 there.
16 "Q. Do you know any of the names of the people in Mombasa
17 that Haroun indicated contact with in order to carry out this
18 giving away of money?
19 "A. I know someone called Sheikh Sayyid.
20 "Q. Sheikh Sayyid?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. Where is Sheikh Sayyid from?
23 "A. Kenya.
24 "Q. Any other names?
25 "A. He is the famous person that I know over there.
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1 "Q. Do you know a Khalid over there in Mombasa?
2 "A. Khalid? It is either his son or his son-in-law.
3 "Q. Who is Khalid's son or son-in-law? Sheikh Sayyid?
4 "A. Yes.
5 "Q. Was there anything illegal about the $7,000 that you and
6 Haroun brought down to Mombasa?
7 "A. Anything illegal?
8 "Q. Yes.
9 "A No.
10 "Q Anything wrong with the $7,000 that you and Haroun
11 brought down to Mombasa?
12 "A. I don't understand. I don't think there was anything
13 illegal about it.
14 "Q. Were you at all worried about that $7,000 that you and
15 Haroun brought down to Mombasa?
16 "A. No. Why should we be worried?
17 "Q. Was Haroun worried?
18 "A. I don't think so, no. He was happy.
19 "Q. But when he heard that Madani Al Tayyib was talking to
20 the government authorities, was Haroun worried about his
21 contacts with the people in Mombasa?
22 "A. I don't know. I wasn't around when he knew about this.
23 I was in Pakistan then.
24 "Q. Did Haroun tell you that he broke off all contact with
25 the people in Mombasa after Madani al Tayyib turned up in the
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1 newspapers talking because he was afraid?
2 "A. He didn't tell me that. In fact, he went to Mombasa.
3 "Q. Hasn't come back since, correct?
4 "A. He came back when I came back. He went to Mombasa before
5 I came back, and then we -- when he knew I came back, he came
6 to Nairobi.
7 "Q. Where was he staying in Nairobi?
8 "A. I don't know, but I believe he would stay in the hotel in
9 Eastleigh.
10 "Q. Where would he usually stay when he worked for you all
11 that time in Nairobi?
12 "A. With me in my house.
13 "Q. When you last came back to Nairobi and he met him at your
14 friend's house, where did he stay then?
15 A. I don't know where he stayed, but he probably in a hotel,
16 like I said, in Eastleigh.
17 "Q. But he no longer stayed at your house?
18 "A. No, he was afraid.
19 "Q. Why was he afraid?
20 "A. Because he heard that the FBI people came over.
21 "Q. Now, when you were in Arizona, you knew Mubarak al
22 Dousri?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q D-O-U-S-R-I?
25 "A. D-O-O-R-Y.
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1 "Q. And did Mubarak el Doory from Arizona turn out later to
2 work for Usama Bin Laden?
3 "A. Yes, in his agricultural company in Sudan.
4 "Q. And when did he work for Usama Bin Laden in the Sudan?
5 "A. In '92.
6 "Q. And was he still working for Usama Bin Laden when you
7 left the Sudan in 1994?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. When was the last time you spoke with him?
10 "A. That year, '94.
11 "Q. When was the last time you saw him?
12 "A. That same year.
13 "Q. When you worked for Usama Bin Laden, in the Sudan, how
14 much were you paid?
15 "A. $1,200.
16 "Q. Per?
17 "A Per month.
18 "Q. For How long did you work for him?
19 "A. Almost two years.
20 "Q What banks did he keep his money at?
21 "A. Bank el Shamar.
22 "Q. Any other banks?
23 "A. I think he had accounts in different banks, but I only
24 recall Bank Shamar.
25 "Q. Did he keep any accounts in your name?
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1 "A. No, I had my own account.
2 "Q. The one at Girocredit in Vienna?
3 "A. No, no, in Sudan.
4 "Q. Your name?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. That was for your money?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q Do you know Mohamed M-A-S-A-R-I?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. Have you ever met him?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. Do you know where Mohamed al Masari lives?
13 "A. He lives in England.
14 "Q. Do you know if he works with Bin Laden?
15 "A. I don't.
16 "Q Do you know Saad al Faqih, F-A-Q-I-H?
17 "A. I don't know him but I know he works with al Masari.
18 "Q. Are you familiar with the Committee of the Defense of
19 Legitimate Rights, CDLR?
20 "A. I heard of it.
21 "Q. Do you know what its relationship is to Bin Laden?
22 "A. No, but they both are positioned against the Saudi
23 government.
24 "Q. Do you know if Bin Laden is a member of CDLR?
25 "A. I don't.
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1 "Q. Do you know Dr. Abdullah Muhammad Yusuf?
2 "A No.
3 "Q Do you know Inb al Qattab?
4 "A Ibn?
5 "Q Ibn al Qattab?
6 "A Al Qattab. Ibn al Qattab? I heard the name.
7 "Q Where did you hear it?
8 "A. In Pakistan.
9 "Q. From whom?
10 "A. Different people, I can't recall whom exactly.
11 "Q. Have you ever met him?
12 "A. I don't remember meeting him.
13 "Q. Do you know Assadalla, A-S-S-A-D-A-L-L-A, al Sindi?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. Where did you meet Assadalla al Sindi?
16 "A. I never met him, but I heard he works for Bin Laden.
17 "Q. What does he do for Bin Laden?
18 "A. I think business in Pakistan.
19 "Q. Business where?
20 "A. In Pakistan.
21 "Q. Pakistan?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. Does he know Azmarai?
24 "A. I don't know. He probably does.
25 "Q. Have you ever met Assadalla al Sindi yourself?
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1 "A. No, never.
2 "Q. Do you know Mohamed Jamal Khalifah?
3 "A. No.
4 "Q. Do you know Mohamed Amin al Sanani, S-A-N-A-N-I?
5 "A. No.
6 "Q. Can you tell us what the al Baraka files are,
7 B-A-R-A-K-A?
8 "A. Al Baraka files?
9 "Q. Yes.
10 "A. I don't recall this name.
11 "Q. Do you recall maintaining the al Baraka files yourself?
12 "A. No, never.
13 "Q. Now, you have told this grand jury the last time you
14 dealt with Usama Bin Laden the last time you worked for him
15 was 1994.
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. That is the last time you have seen him?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. I am going to ask you again so that the record is crystal
20 clear that you have been warned, that to lie is punishable as
21 perjury which you can spend five years in jail. I want to be
22 crystal clear you understood what my questions are. I am
23 going to ask you again.
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. Have you seen Usama Bin Laden anyplace in the world in
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1 1995, 1996, or 1997?
2 "A. I haven't seen him anywhere after I left Sudan.
3 "Q. And after you left Sudan in what year?
4 "A. '94.
5 "Q. So it is your testimony that you have not seen Usama Bin
6 Laden anywhere in the world in 1995, 1996, or 997?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. And you have not told anyone that you have seen Usama Bin
9 Laden anywhere in the world in 1995, 1996 or 1997?
10 "A. Yes.
11 "Q. I would ask the grand jurors, the foreperson, if we could
12 tell Mr. El Hage that we would adjourn his testimony. I don't
13 know if we will have to follow up any further, but if he could
14 see stay under subpoena and if we need to call him back, the
15 foreperson can contact us and we will reach out and make the
16 appropriate arrangements.
17 "The foreperson: Do you understand?
18 "Q. What I am suggesting to the foreperson is we break for
19 the day, and if we decide we need further testimony from you,
20 we will schedule it at a mutually convenient time at our
21 expense. But if we need to bring you back, we don't need to
22 send someone to hand you a subpoena, we can call you up and
23 say please come back again. Do you understand that?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. Does the foreperson so direct?
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1 "The Foreperson: You understood?
2 "A Yes.
3 "The Foreperson: You may be excused.
4 "Q. The last thing is, if there is any question you would
5 like to change the answer to right now, this is your chance to
6 do so.
7 "A Are we going to go over the questions?
8 "Q For whatever reason, if you came in here and told any
9 lies, this is your chance to tell us you would like to take
10 back an answer. Otherwise, the record will be sealed, and for
11 any false statements you could be prosecuted. So I am giving
12 you that answer.
13 "A No.
14 "Q OK, thank you.
15 "(Witness excused.)
16 "(Time noted, 3:44 p.m.
17 "(Colloquy follows.)
18 "Certificate. State of New York, County of New York.
19 I, Carey-Ann Rosenblatt hereby certify that the foregoing is a
20 true and accurate transcript, to the best of my skill and
21 ability from my stenographic notes of this proceeding.
22 Carey-Ann Rosenblatt, acting grand jury reporter."
23 THE COURT: Thank you.
24 MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Al-Fadl will be recalled to the
25 stand for cross-examination.
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1 THE COURT: Very well. You will recall that this
2 witness has testified on direct and has been cross-examined on
3 behalf of the defendants except the defendant El Hage, whose
4 attorney was ill. Mr. Schmidt has rejoined us and we will
5 proceed then with the cross-examination on behalf of the
6 defendant El Hage with the witness Jamal Ahmed Mohamed
7 al-Fadl.
8 JAMAL AHMED MOHAMED AL-FADL,
9 recalled as a witness by the government,
10 having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
11 THE COURT: Is there a stand-by interpreter?
12 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. Ms. Grant went to get the
13 interpreter. I have seen her with my own eyes. We can start
14 without her, but Ms. Grant went to get her.
15 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, I would prefer to have the
16 interpreter present.
17 MR. FITZGERALD: In case she is in the ladies' room,
18 I don't know if we could borrow one of the interpreters from
19 the back to start, if she is in the ladies' room.
20 THE COURT: Is there another interpreter available?
21 MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Coudoni seems to be coming.
22 (Andre Coudoni sworn as interpreter)
23 (Continued on next page)
24
25
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al-Fadl - cross
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. SCHMIDT:
3 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, did I pronounce that correctly?
4 A. What?
5 Q. Did I pronounce the name correctly?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You began working in the Sudan for Mr. Bin Laden, is that
8 correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. What was the year that you first began doing work in the
11 Sudan for Mr. Bin Laden?
12 A. I believe end of '89, the first time I went to Sudan.
13 Q. That was the first time after going to Afghanistan that
14 you went to the Sudan, is that correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. You were born and raised in the Sudan, correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. You went from Afghanistan to Sudan at the bequest of
19 Mr. Bin Laden, is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What was your role? What did you do when you first went
22 to the Sudan in 1989?
23 A. I remember we, me and other brother we went over there and
24 we start to rent houses and establish companies for the group.
25 Q. In the Sudan back in 1989, was property required to be
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al-Fadl - cross
1 owned by Sudanese?
2 A. Which Sudanese?
3 Q. Were foreigners allowed to own property in the Sudan?
4 1989?
5 A. Yes. Some property buy with money and some property from
6 the government.
7 MR. SCHMIDT: Could you please interpret this
8 question, please.
9 Q. In 1989, were foreigners allowed to own property in the
10 Sudan? (Interpreted)
11 A. I don't know the government rule, but we have agreement
12 between the group and the government. That's how he got the
13 land.
14 Q. The properties that were first rented or purchased were in
15 names of Sudanese, isn't that correct?
16 A. Yes, under my name.
17 Q. Are you aware that the Sudanese law required that property
18 be held in the name of Sudanese businesses or persons?
19 A. Well, I rent it and some lands I bought it, and I think
20 that's the law.
21 MR. SCHMIDT: Can you translate my question.
22 Q. Were you aware that Sudanese law required that property be
23 held under the name of Sudanese or Sudanese businesses?
24 (Interpreted)
25 A. (Through interpreter) Investment law permits that.
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al-Fadl - cross
1 Q. Permits what?
2 A. To buy land or houses or farms.
3 Q. Under the names of Sudanese persons or businesses, is that
4 correct?
5 A. Under Sudanese, but for foreign people, no.
6 Q. For foreign use, but under the names of Sudanese persons
7 or businesses, is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How long did you remain in the Sudan when you first went
10 over in 1989 to purchase or lease properties or start
11 businesses?
12 A. I don't remember exactly, but I back and forth between
13 Sudan and Pakistan, different times.
14 Q. What year was it when you moved back to the Sudan with
15 Mr. Bin Laden?
16 A. When he come back from Pakistan to Sudan, I didn't come
17 with him.
18 Q. You remained in Afghanistan?
19 A. Yes. I went Sudan and I come back to Pakistan, because
20 once in a while I go back and I tell him what going on in
21 Sudan.
22 Q. When did you return to the Sudan to live?
23 A. Like I tell you, I go back and forth between Sudan and
24 Pakistan.
25 Q. There came a time that you stopped going back and forth
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al-Fadl - cross
1 from Afghanistan and Sudan and you stopped and you started to
2 live in Sudan again. When was that?
3 A. Yes. I live in Sudan I think in '91, I went back to
4 Pakistan, I come back again and in '92 I went back to Pakistan
5 and I come back again.
6 Q. In 1991, how long did you go back to Pakistan?
7 A. Not more than two weeks.
8 Q. In 1992, how long did you go to Pakistan?
9 A. It could be week or 10 days.
10 Q. So other than these short trips, you lived in the Sudan,
11 is that correct?
12 A. Correct, yes.
13 Q. When was it that you started to live in the Sudan, not
14 counting the short trips to Pakistan?
15 A. It's hard to say because I'm always traveling. I live in
16 Sudan but always I go outside to Egypt, to Pakistan, to other
17 countries, and I come back to Sudan.
18 Q. Did Mr. Bin Laden buy you a house when you returned to the
19 Sudan?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What year did he buy you a house?
22 A. I think that's in '92.
23 Q. And that was for you and your wife, is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Between 1989 and end of 1991, what jobs were you doing for
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al-Fadl - cross
1 Mr. Bin Laden?
2 A. I switched from other things. Like sometime I work from
3 one, sometimes I work -- I don't have like one job. So I
4 switch from different companies, different jobs.
5 Q. Are you telling us that you worked for one company for one
6 week and then you went to another company for another week and
7 another association?
8 A. Yes sometimes tell me to do that job, go to Qadarif. I do
9 the trip. Sometimes tell me to go to Damazine and Umduhrman.
10 Q. Mr. Fadl, you testified on direct examination at some
11 point that you worked in an office at McNimr Street, is that
12 correct?
13 A. That's correct, yes.
14 Q. When did you actually start sitting in an office and doing
15 work in an office?
16 A. Since the first time I went to Sudan end of '89 and we
17 established Wadi al Aqiq company.
18 Q. After you started the company, helped start the companies,
19 helped lease property, were you based out of the office at
20 McNimr Street?
21 A. Yes, I have office over there.
22 Q. Were you paid a salary through one of the companies in
23 McNimr Street?
24 A. From Laden International Company and Taba Investment, and
25 also I got another salary from the group.
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1 Q. No matter which company you were actually doing work
2 for --
3 A. I work for all the companies.
4 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, please let me finish my question. No matter
5 which company you were actually doing work for, you were being
6 paid from the Taba or Laden International, is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So if you went on a trip for one of the agricultural
9 companies, you still would get the check, or the money from
10 Taba, say, is that correct?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. In 1989, you purchased, you helped others lease property,
13 bought property, started businesses; is that your testimony?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Other than doing these trips that you said, what other
16 kind of work did you do in 1989, 1990, and 1991?
17 A. One time I did trip to Egypt from Pakistan.
18 Q. What else?
19 A. I work inside Sudan. I went to the Damazine Camp, over
20 there. I buy sesame and beans from Khartoum Bari City. I
21 work in Damazine. I got Islamic training in Soba farm for
22 three weeks. I got refresh training also in Tajj al Sirr
23 Mustafa's guesthouse.
24 Q. Did there come a time that you became an assistant to a
25 person that you call Abu Makkee, whose real name is Madani Al
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1 Tayyib?
2 A. Yes, Madani al Tayyib Abu Fadhl al Makkee.
3 Q. I am going to call him Madani Tayyib. You know what I am
4 talking about?
5 A. OK.
6 Q. When did you become an assistant to Mr. al Tayyib?
7 A. First time I see him? Is this your question?
8 Q. When did you become a business assistant to Mr. al Tayyib?
9 A. First time I work with him in Afghanistan in '89.
10 Q. Mr. al Tayyib was running one of the companies in the
11 Sudan, is that correct?
12 A. He is a supervisor for the whole business in Sudan, when
13 he moved to Sudan.
14 Q. Did you become an assistant to him in the Sudan?
15 A. Yes, I work under him.
16 Q. What year did you become an assistant to Mr. al Tayyib in
17 the Sudan?
18 A. Maybe this area of '91.
19 Q. Prior to becoming the business assistant to Mr. al Tayyib,
20 did you serve, other than what you mentioned, any other
21 function in the Bin Laden companies?
22 A. Yes, I do other stuff.
23 Q. For example?
24 A. Like sometimes they tell me go to Pakistan, take this
25 message.
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1 Q. OK.
2 A. I go Pakistan. Sometimes --
3 Q. In the Sudan --
4 THE COURT: He hadn't finished his answer when you
5 cut him off.
6 A. Madani Tayyib, he is a businessman, he runs the companies,
7 but at the same time he work in the group. Sometimes he give
8 me business work, sometimes he tell me go get training.
9 Sometimes he tell me those new people, go interview him.
10 Sometimes he tell me go to Abu Abdallah Lubnani, we need
11 Islamic training. So whatever he tell me, he is my manager
12 business, and at the same time he is my emir under the group.
13 Q. I am saying, between 1989, first time you came back to the
14 Sudan and to the time that you became the special assistant to
15 Mr. al Tayyib, have you basically told us every kind of work
16 that you did in the Sudan for Mr. Bin Laden?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How long did you work as a special assistant to Mr. al
19 Tayyib?
20 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form.
21 A. Like I tell you --
22 THE COURT: Just a moment.
23 MR. FITZGERALD: Just objection to form.
24 THE COURT: Restate your question.
25 MR. SCHMIDT: Could we have it read back, please?
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1 THE COURT: Yes.
2 (Record read)
3 MR. FITZGERALD: The same objection to form, to
4 special.
5 THE COURT: To the special. Objection as to your
6 objection to describing special assistant as a term the
7 witness is not familiar with.
8 Q. Have you described everything that you did in Sudan from
9 the time that you returned to the Sudan in 1989 until the time
10 you became an assistant to Mr. al Tayyib?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When you were working for Mr. al Tayyib, did you handled
13 commercial business?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you tell us some of the products that were involved
16 in the commercial business.
17 A. I arrange guesthouses, I buy farms and license for the
18 companies. I help people for traveling.
19 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, were there certain products that Mr. al
20 Tayyib and Taba were trying to sell or grow to sell?
21 A. Yes. We sell sugar and palm oil and soap, we exchange
22 foreign, the local bonds to foreign. We buy peanuts and
23 sesame, sunflower.
24 Q. There were farms that produced agricultural products, is
25 that correct?
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1 A. Yes, in Damazine.
2 Q. Where were the tractors obtained?
3 A. Could you repeat the question.
4 Q. Where were the tractors obtained from?
5 A. The tractors?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. In the farm, in Damazine.
8 Q. Where were the tractors purchased from?
9 A. Where we buy from?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. I remember Abu Rida al Suri, he buy them from
12 Czechoslovakia.
13 Q. Were there trucks used, both the construction company and
14 the agricultural companies?
15 A. We have contract transportation. It's a company just run
16 the tractors.
17 Q. Were the trucks purchased from Russia?
18 A. Yes, from, I forget the name of the company now.
19 Q. Maz?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is that the name?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who went to purchase the trucks?
24 A. I don't remember, but I think Abu Rida al Suri and
25 Abdallah Lubnani.
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1 Q. One of the products that were grown by one of Mr. Bin
2 Laden's companies was sesame, is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And there was great effort made to sell the sesame
5 throughout the world, is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. There was also white corn grown, is that correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Peanuts were grown, is that correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Sunflowers were grown, is that correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Wheat was grown, is that correct?
14 A. She help me. I don't know what that mean. (Interpreted)
15 Yes.
16 Q. And there was a whole bunch of fruits and vegetables grown
17 from one of the other companies, is that right? Blessed
18 Fruits, is that it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was there olive oil produced?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Was there other kinds of oil produced?
23 A. Yes, from sesame and peanuts.
24 Q. This is the early years we are talking about, 1990, 1991,
25 right, '92?
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1 A. '93, '94.
2 Q. Part of your job and other people's job when you were
3 working for Mr. al Tayyib was trying to find markets for these
4 items, is that right?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And later on the items also included skins from the
7 tannery, is that right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. There were fava beans, is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. There was also -- now let's talk a little bit about the
12 different companies that formed Mr. Bin Laden's enterprises.
13 A. OK.
14 Q. There were some local companies, like a bakery, is that
15 right?
16 A. What?
17 Q. He had a bakery?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. He had the fruit and vegetable export company, is that
20 correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. He had a Bank of Zoological Resource?
23 (Interpreted)
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. That was to basically raise cattle?
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1 A. Yes, make good genes.
2 Q. And he invested quite a bit of money to try and raise good
3 cattle and make hybrids.
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. How many people worked at the fruit and vegetable company?
6 A. It's run by somebody, his name Motasem al Saudi, but I
7 don't know how many people.
8 Q. Do you know how many people worked at the Bank of
9 Zoological Resource?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you know how many people worked at the bakery?
12 A. No.
13 Q. How many people worked at Laden International?
14 A. Maybe around 25 in that office in McNimr Street.
15 Q. How many people worked at the Altehmar al Mabuaraka,
16 A-L-T-H-E-M-A-R, A-L, M-A-B-U-A-R-A-K-A?
17 A. A lot of people. They got few people in office in
18 Khartoum and people in the farm at Damazine.
19 Q. How about Blessed Fruits? A lot of people worked there?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know how many?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What about Taba?
24 A. Taba and Laden and Qudurat Transportation, 25 people work
25 in office.
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1 Q. How about the International al-Ikhlas Company, A-L,
2 capital I-K-H-L-A-S?
3 A. Al-Ikhlas, in the office I think it's around 10 people do
4 the business in the office.
5 Q. They manufactured sweets and honey, is that right?
6 A. Yes. The factory in Kameen, not in Khartoum.
7 Q. Al-Ikhlas was the main company, mother company, the main
8 company that owned most the of the other companies, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Mother company.
11 How many people worked in just the offices involving
12 al-Ikhlas?
13 A. Bin Laden himself, Sharif al Deen -- I think it could be
14 around 15 or 20.
15 Q. Wadi al Aqiq is a name of a company, has nothing to do
16 with Wadih El Hage, is that correct?
17 A. Could you repeat.
18 Q. The name Wadih El Hage has nothing to do with Wadi al
19 Aqiq, is that correct?
20 A. No, I believe it's valley in Saudi Arabia belong to Bin
21 Laden.
22 Q. How many people worked at the tanning company?
23 A. I don't know. It's a lot of people. It's a big tannery.
24 Q. There was a furniture company making furniture, wasn't
25 there?
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1 A. Correct.
2 Q. How many people worked at the furniture company?
3 A. A lot.
4 Q. At the construction company, al Hijra? That was over 600
5 people who worked there, right?
6 A. Or could be more.
7 Q. Could be more. And they built a number of roads.
8 A. Roads and bridge and yes.
9 Q. You mentioned a few of them.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. They also built a road from Khartoum to Port Sudan, is
12 that right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. That was one of the major projects that was here.
15 A. Yes. It's a major history in Sudan.
16 Q. You became aware that there were sanctions against the
17 Sudan, international sanctions.
18 A. Yes, I hear that.
19 Q. You know that made trade more difficult from the Sudan to
20 countries in Europe and North America, is that right?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Therefore it reduced the value of the Sudanese pound.
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. So it was important for the companies to try to do what
25 they can to export products that they produced into Europe and
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1 America, is that right?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. To do that, sometimes they had to ship their products
4 through other countries, is that right?
5 A. Yes, correct.
6 Q. One of the most popular companies to ship these items was
7 Cyprus, is that right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Because that was a free port, is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. There was no al Qaeda activity in Cyprus, it was just
12 business activity in Cyprus; isn't that right?
13 A. I believe we got guesthouse but we got company, office
14 running the business.
15 Q. That is because if you exported through Cyprus, the value
16 of the product would increase tremendously.
17 A. Yes, make more money.
18 Q. You have told us that tractors were purchased in
19 Czechoslovakia and trucks were purchased in Russia, is that
20 right?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. One of the reasons that they were purchased in the eastern
23 European countries was that it was much cheaper to purchase
24 items in the eastern European countries than they would be in
25 the western European countries or in the United States, is
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1 that correct?
2 A. Yes, cheaper, and they give them more time for paying.
3 Q. So for the business enterprises involved in the Bin Laden
4 companies, there was a lot of travel not only to western
5 Europe but to eastern Europe and other countries where items
6 could be purchased cheaper.
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. You are Sudanese, is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You had a Sudanese passport, is that correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Traveling through western Europe or to the United States
13 or even to the Far East was somewhat difficult for you because
14 you had a Sudanese passport, is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. People who had either European, western European passports
17 or American passports were table able to travel much easier,
18 is that correct?
19 A. Yes, much, much easier.
20 Q. Therefore it was less expensive for them to travel, is
21 that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. They were able to do business faster because of those
24 passports, is that correct?
25 A. Correct.
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1 Q. They were more valuable to the Bin Laden businesses
2 because they were able to travel easily.
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. For commercial purposes to either buy goods like the
5 tractors or to sell goods like sesame and the skins and those
6 items, is that right?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Sudan is a poor country, isn't it?
9 A. Very poor.
10 Q. The average income is about $50 a month for the average
11 Sudanese?
12 A. No, I think it's much less.
13 Q. And there are a lot of things that aren't produced in
14 Sudan if you want to run a business that you have to purchase
15 outside of the Sudan, is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So either you or Abu Rida or other people -- withdrawn.
18 Abu Rida had an American passport, didn't he?
19 A. I hear that, yes.
20 Q. Do you know who Abu Khadija is?
21 A. I think he got German citizen.
22 Q. People like him would travel to eastern Europe and western
23 Europe to try to get the best things that were needed that had
24 to be imported into the Sudan, is that right?
25 A. Right.
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1 Q. There was cement that was needed?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. There was asphalt that was needed. There was fertilizer
4 for the farms that were needed.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. People also would come up with ideas, maybe we can --
7 withdrawn.
8 Taba was a company that sold things inside of the
9 Sudan, is that right?
10 A. Yes, the local stuff.
11 Q. And for it to make money, you would have to get it at a
12 lower price and then sell it at a higher price, is that right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And then, since the Sudan is a very poor country, you have
15 to make sure you get a real low price for these items because
16 otherwise you will not be able to sell them in Sudan, is that
17 right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. So part of the travel of these people who had either
20 European or American passports was to see if they could do
21 trading, buying something in another country that is less
22 expensive and selling it in the Sudan at a relatively cheap
23 price to make a profit, is that right?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. There came a time that you left working as an assistant
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1 for Mr. al Tayyib and you became, you started to work for Abu
2 Rida, R-I-D-A, is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Since you started working as an assistant sometime in 1992
5 for Mr. al Tayyib, you worked about a year for Mr. al Tayyib
6 as his assistant, is that correct?
7 A. It could be more.
8 Q. When do you think that you went to work for Abu Rida as
9 his assistant?
10 A. I worked with Abu Rida and I come back to al Tayyib. So I
11 left Tayyib I go to Rida and go back to al Tayyib. I go do
12 other stuff and go back to Tayyib.
13 Q. Did you work about seven months for Mr. Abu Rida?
14 A. Not in his office for seven months, but any time he want
15 me to go, I do the job for him and I come back.
16 Q. At the time that you went, you were freed up to work for
17 Mr. Abu Rida when Mr. El Hage came to the Sudan, is that
18 right?
19 A. I don't know what you talk about, Hage.
20 Q. Mr. El Hage, Wadih El Hage who is sitting over there.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. He came near the end of 1992, is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you helped train him to do the trading aspects that
25 you were doing for Mr. al Tayyib, is that right?
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1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Once he was trained, you were able to do some work for
3 Mr. Abu Rida, is that right?
4 A. Yes, you are right.
5 Q. In fact, Mr. El Hage -- withdrawn.
6 Abu Rida was doing a lot of traveling because he had
7 an American passport, is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. After Mr. El Hage was trained about the commodities, he
10 started doing a lot of traveling instead of Abu Rida, is that
11 right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So therefore Mr. El Hage ended up being out of the
14 country, out of the Sudan quite a bit doing the traveling that
15 Abu Rida was doing before.
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And you were working mostly for Abu Rida at that time. If
18 there was nothing in particular you might go back and help out
19 Mr. al Tayyib, is that right?
20 A. Yes, I go back to Tayyib or I go to other stuff.
21 Q. There was also an Abu Dijana who came in.
22 A. Yes, Abu Dijana Abdallah al Yemeni.
23 Q. And he came in and was trained by you as well, is that
24 right?
25 A. With Sayyid el Masry and Bushra Yasin. Other people also
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1 train him.
2 Q. So he was not traveling that much, he was mostly in the
3 office, is that right?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. So by early 1993, Mr. El Hage was doing a lot of traveling
6 out of the country concerning selling things like the corn,
7 the sesame seeds, hibiscus, right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And other items that they were trying to produce in the
10 Sudan, is that right?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. He was also doing a lot of traveling to obtain more
13 tractors, is that right?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And other items like asphalt or cement or pricing other
16 items that might be useful to make money in the Sudan, is that
17 right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. So he wasn't around that much in 1993 because he was doing
20 most of the traveling for Taba and Laden International, is
21 that right?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. In fact, after you trained Mr. El Hage, you didn't see him
24 very much in the business. You were doing different things,
25 right?
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1 A. Yes, you are right.
2 Q. I want to mention some other items that Mr. El Hage and
3 other workers at Laden International or Taba were involved
4 either trying to obtain or sell. Bananas?
5 A. Yes in Kassala City.
6 Q. Butcher equipment? (Translated)
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Canned mushrooms and canned tomatoes?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Cement?
11 A. Yes, from outside, you are right, we bring it from
12 outside.
13 Q. A deal to try and produce, to make a cheese factory?
14 A. I don't remember this.
15 Q. There was machines that needed to be purchased to crush
16 rock?
17 A. For the Qudurat Construction?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. There was discussions about purchasing iron?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Insecticides?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Lathing machines?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Lemons?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Olives?
4 A. I don't remember olives.
5 Q. Raisins, nuts, hazelnuts and almonds?
6 A. I don't remember.
7 Q. From Tajikistan? Does that ring a bell?
8 A. I really don't remember.
9 Q. There was discussion about building a rice mill?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. There was always businesses involving sugar, is that
12 right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. The sugar was produced both inside Sudan, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. There was also discussions of importing sugar as well?
17 A. Yes, local and import, yes.
18 Q. And there was talk about wood, obtaining wood from Turkey?
19 A. Yes, I remember.
20 Q. There was an awful lot of business going on in the Bin
21 Laden businesses, wasn't there?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. After Mr. El Hage and Mr. Dijana came in, working in Taba,
24 there came a time about a year later in 1994 where you left
25 your employments with Mr. Bin Laden, is that correct?
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1 A. No, I don't leave the group in 1994.
2 Q. Didn't you go work for a research institute?
3 A. A delegation office.
4 Q. Didn't you call that a research institute?
5 A. We call it delegation office.
6 Q. Wasn't that a Sudanese company that was not affiliated
7 with Mr. Bin Laden?
8 A. This is, it's office helped the people when the other
9 groups come to Sudan, we interview them and we make sure they
10 are good people.
11 Q. Do you know the name of Amin Hassan Omer, A-M-I-N,
12 H-A-S-S-A-N, O-M-E-R? It may be O-M-A-R. Amin Hassan Omer.
13 Do you know that name?
14 A. No, I don't remember.
15 Q. Do you know who was the legal security adviser to
16 President Basheer in 1994?
17 A. Could you repeat the question.
18 MR. SCHMIDT: Could you translate that, please. Do
19 you know the name of the person who was the legal security
20 adviser to President Basheer in 1994?
21 A. Yes. His al Tayef. I don't remember his whole name but I
22 remember his family name al Tayef.
23 Q. Didn't you go work for him in 1994?
24 A. No. Delegation office, they got different manager. His
25 name Dr. Motrif Sadeek.
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1 Q. We will come back to this. At some point you started
2 working at the company called al Sargani.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. That company was a company where all of the shareholders
5 were relatives of yours, is that correct?
6 A. Sargani belong to Islamic National Front but it's owned by
7 me, but we use it as umbrella for other work.
8 Q. When you use the term Islamic National Front, that was the
9 political party of Sudan that was in power, is that correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. The person at that time who was the president of Sudan was
12 a man named Basheer, is that correct?
13 A. Could you repeat your question.
14 Q. The president of the country of Sudan back in 1994 was
15 President Basheer.
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. The person who headed the party, what you call the Islamic
18 National Front, was a man named al Turabi.
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. It was known that Mr. Al Turabi basically was the power
21 behind the government, is that correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. You used Islamic National Front. Is it sometimes the
24 initials NIF used?
25 A. Yes, NIF.
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1 Q. So if I use the expression NIF, you will know what I am
2 talking about?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Al Sargani was an NIF company, is that correct?
5 A. Yes, it's umbrella company.
6 Q. You told us that Sheikh Sayyid el Masry came into the
7 offices at McNimr Street on June 9, 1993, is that correct?
8 A. I don't remember the month, but it could be June '93.
9 Q. You testified on direct examination not just to the month,
10 you gave the specific date, June --
11 A. I don't remember now. If I say at that time, yes,
12 correct.
13 Q. Is there a reason why you remember a specific date on
14 direct examination while Mr. Fitzgerald was examining you and
15 now you don't even remember a month?
16 A. No, it's just human, you know. Sometimes you ask me a
17 question, I don't remember it.
18 Q. You left the Sudan the last time in February of 1996, is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes, in February '96.
21 Q. You traveled to quite a few places. Is that right?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. You were traveling -- first you went to Syria because that
24 simply was the easiest place to go, is that right?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. You went to Jordan?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. You went to see a man that you said was a member of al
4 Qaeda, Abu Ahram.
5 A. Abu Ahram al Urdani.
6 Q. He was a member of al Qaeda?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You told us that you left the Sudan because you were
9 worried because you stole money and couldn't pay it back,
10 right?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. You were also concerned with the NIF, isn't that right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. You spent time talking with Abu Ahram, is that right?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. You felt comfortable talking to Abu Ahram, right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. He was no threat to you, was he?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You began your journeys trying to start an opposition
21 party to the NIF, is that right?
22 A. I don't understand the question.
23 Q. Would you translate it. You tried to start an opposition
24 to the NIF, is that right? (Interpreted)
25 A. Not exactly what you say. I am mad with him, but, you
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1 know, I don't have money to start making group -- I don't have
2 enough money, I make.
3 Q. You didn't have enough money to start an opposition party?
4 A. I don't have thinking about that. It never come in my
5 mind like that. But they make me mad and I left Sudan and I
6 really hate them.
7 Q. You had many, many conversations at the end of 1996 with
8 agents of the United States government, is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You spent about 30 days or so from September and October
11 and November talking to agents of the United States?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. In one of the conversations with these agents, didn't you
14 tell them that you hoped that the US government would help you
15 establish an intellectual opposition party against the NIF?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You did not have any money when you started your travels
18 in February, so you were trying to raise money.
19 A. The first thing I did in Syria, I went to United Nations,
20 and I tell them I have problems my government, and they give
21 me every two weeks some money from United Nations in Syria.
22 Q. The money was just enough to live on and not to start an
23 opposition party, right?
24 A. Yes, just for food and living.
25 Q. You were looking to raise money to support yourself and to
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1 form an opposition party in the Sudan, isn't that right?
2 A. Yes, just like anybody, you know, he try to make his
3 country best.
4 Q. You went to Damascus and from there you went to Jordan,
5 right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In Jordan you actually tried to go to Israel to see if you
8 could convince the Israelis to give you money, isn't that
9 right?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. That's how much you hated the NIF, that you would go to
12 the Israelis.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. But you didn't go to Israel, you went to Lebanon instead,
15 is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you tried to see if you could sell a book about the
18 NIF.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But you decided not to, because you were afraid the
21 publisher was a greedy person and you wouldn't get your share,
22 right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You went back to Damascus and put in an application for
25 refugee status, is that right?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You were told that was the only place you could do it
3 because it was the first place you went to from Sudan, right?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. You weren't very interested in staying in Damascus.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You were or were not?
8 A. Would you repeat the question.
9 Q. Were you interested or not interested in staying in
10 Damascus?
11 A. No, because there are a lot of NIF over there.
12 Q. You went to Asmarai in Eritrea.
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. There there were a number of Sudanese opposition people,
15 is that right?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And you talked with them over there, is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You discussed with them what the best way would be for you
20 to be used to help the opposition.
21 A. They ask me, yes.
22 Q. But nobody wanted to give you money to fund your own
23 opposition, did they?
24 A. No, they say if you want to share, come work with us, you
25 don't have money.
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1 Q. You didn't want to do that?
2 A. No, I am very interested to work with them, but.
3 Q. You went to the Eritrean government to try to convince
4 them to support you, is that right?
5 A. No, just like any Sudanese, when he go over there, he
6 should go to the office, support the all Sudanese opposition
7 activity. So I am just like other people.
8 Q. You didn't just go over to the government of Eritrea to
9 support the opposition, you went and made videotapes and
10 cassette tapes?
11 A. No, just for the government, for organization human
12 rights.
13 Q. But you didn't stay there, you got a trip to Saudi Arabia,
14 is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You talked to the Saudi Arabians, is that right?
17 A. Which Saudi Arabia?
18 Q. You talked with Saudi Arabians?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Saudis, right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In Saudi Arabia, you talked more now about Mr. Bin Laden
23 because you knew that the Saudis were trying to stop Mr. Bin
24 Laden, is that right?
25 A. They was asking me so many questions and I am very happy
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1 at that time to answer the questions, and one of the questions
2 about Bin Laden.
3 Q. Not only was one of the questions Bin Laden, you gave the
4 Saudis a proposal to assassinate Mr. Bin Laden, didn't you?
5 A. Well, any questions they ask me, I give them answer.
6 Q. So when they asked you how the best way to murder or
7 assassinate Mr. Bin Laden, you came up with a plan and gave it
8 to the Saudi government, is that right?
9 A. I don't have plan but when they ask me that question, I
10 give them what I know.
11 Q. It wasn't what you know, it was what you would do.
12 A. What I know, because I was in group before.
13 Q. Didn't you tell the Americans when you ultimately went to
14 the Americans a little bit about your conversation with the
15 Saudis?
16 A. Of course, yes.
17 Q. When you told them, didn't you tell the Americans that you
18 proposed a plan that Bin Laden should be liquidated by the Abu
19 Nisab group, belonging to your relative Mohammed Suda al
20 Nalfi?
21 A. Yes, I remember that.
22 Q. You had a plan, isn't that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. But you ended up leaving the Saudis because they didn't
25 offer you any money.
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1 A. No, they tell me go to Azmarai and wait over there and
2 somebody going to start working for you over there, and they
3 say could be take two weeks or three weeks. And they tell me
4 go to the embassy, and they give me name, but I decide to go
5 to the American Embassy.
6 Q. Didn't you complain that they offered you no reward for
7 all this information?
8 A. No, they say when that guy, he want to come in Azmarai, he
9 going to start with you and he want to help you.
10 Q. Didn't you say that you were worried about the opposition
11 party, the particular opposition party that brought you to
12 Saudi Arabia was going to try to take the reward for the
13 Saudis and keep it for themselves and you not get anything;
14 isn't that right?
15 A. At that time I work for the Sudanese group as a member.
16 Q. And you thought they were going to take the reward from
17 the Saudis that you earned, isn't that right?
18 A. Yes, I think about that.
19 Q. So after having no other place who was willing to meet
20 your demands you finally go as a last resort to the Americans,
21 is that right?
22 A. No, when I come back from Saudi Arabia, they say wait in
23 Azmarai two weeks or three weeks, but I decide after three
24 days if I go to Americans maybe it's better, because Saudis
25 they want me to work outside, they want me to go to Pakistan,
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1 and I tell them that's really hard.
2 Q. You knew you were not going to work with the Saudis, is
3 that right?
4 A. Yes, I tell them I know it's very hard. When they ask me
5 it's hard.
6 Q. You didn't trust them, did you?
7 A. I trust them very much but I don't trust the plan. I
8 don't trust what they want me to do.
9 Q. Did you tell the American agents that you did not trust
10 the Saudis?
11 A. I don't trust the plan, not personally.
12 Q. Didn't you say flat out to the Americans, I do not trust
13 the Saudis?
14 A. What I mean, the plan, not the people.
15 Q. So you did tell the Americans that you did not trust the
16 Saudis but you are explaining now that that didn't mean I did
17 not trust the Saudis, I didn't trust their plan. Is that what
18 you say?
19 A. There is millions of people. That not means I don't trust
20 the people. I don't trust the people I saw when I went to my
21 trip.
22 Q. The people that you saw were high members of the
23 government of Saudi Arabia, is that right?
24 A. Yes. I don't trust the plan.
25 Q. You don't trust the government of Saudi Arabia, not the
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1 people --
2 A. No, that's not correct, because the government thousands
3 of people. It's hard to say that.
4 Q. Did you say to the Americans I don't trust the Saudis,
5 meaning the Saudi government officials that you were dealing
6 with?
7 A. No, the people I saw. I saw only few peoples from the
8 government.
9 Q. Wasn't one a minister?
10 A. What?
11 Q. Wasn't one a minister of the government?
12 A. It's few people from intelligence office.
13 Q. You didn't trust the Egyptians, did you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Not at all.
16 A. No, I never work with them.
17 Q. If anything, anybody who was up in Afghanistan during the
18 Afghani jihad did not want to go trust the Egyptians, right?
19 A. You are right.
20 Q. So the Egyptians you weren't going to. The Saudi you
21 didn't trust, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The Yemenis you didn't trust, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You had been to Eritrea, and you didn't trust them, right?
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1 A. I feel, but when I went to Americans --
2 Q. The Eritreans are a very poor country?
3 A. Very good.
4 Q. Nice people but poor country?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. They weren't giving you a lot of money, you didn't want to
7 live the lifestyle of the Eritreans, did you?
8 A. I am not looking for money.
9 Q. You didn't want to stay in Syria, right?
10 A. Yes, because lot of NIF membership in Syria and Syria got
11 great relationship.
12 Q. You considered going to Israel, didn't you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Bottom line, there was no other place to go to other than
15 the Americans. The last place that you were going to try to
16 get what you wanted was from the Americans, right?
17 A. Yes, I decide to go to America.
18 Q. When you decided to go to America, you came to them as a
19 Sudanese dissident, somebody who was opposing the present
20 government in the Sudan, right?
21 A. I don't understand that.
22 Q. When you went to see the Americans at the embassy, you
23 went there as a person who opposed the NIF in the Sudan,
24 right? (Interpreted)
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. You knew that the Americans had no diplomatic
2 relationships with the Sudan at that time, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The Sudanese didn't like the Americans for what they were
5 doing to the Sudanese, right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the Americans didn't like the Sudanese, what they
8 thought the Sudanese were doing to the rest of the world.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When you started talking to the Americans, the Americans
11 weren't particularly interested in all of the political goings
12 on in Sudan, were they?
13 A. They ask me questions and I give them the answer and I
14 wait until they --
15 Q. What they were interested in was Mr. Bin Laden, wasn't it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You realized that very quickly into your conversation with
18 these Americans, didn't you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you knew that if you were going to get what you wanted
21 or needed from the Americans, you needed to answer their
22 questions about Bin Laden, right?
23 A. Could you repeat your question.
24 MR. SCHMIDT: Please translate this.
25 Q. You knew very quickly that if you were going to get what
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1 you wanted from the Americans, you were going to have to
2 answer their questions about Bin Laden.
3 (Interpreted)
4 A. Yes. What I know, I work with Bin Laden nine years. It's
5 history.
6 Q. You told them some things that simply were lies, is that
7 right?
8 A. No.
9 Q. No? Did you tell them --
10 A. I work with Bin Laden nine years.
11 Q. Did you tell the Americans in the first or second year
12 that you trained with Ramzi Yusef?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Ramzi Yusef at that time was in the United States and was
15 going to trial for some kind of terrorist activity, right?
16 A. No, not because that, because we in Afghanistan, I saw him
17 in the camp, we train, and that's right.
18 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, you volunteered to the Americans, saying that
19 you trained with Ramzi Yusef.
20 A. No, not because he's news but because I know the guy from
21 Afghanistan.
22 Q. And you knew that the Americans were interested in Ramzi
23 Yusef, didn't you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you know they were?
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1 A. No, not because interested, it's what I know. It's nine
2 years with those people.
3 Q. Isn't it a fact that you never ever met the man?
4 A. Yes, we are in -- I don't remember the camp now but I
5 remember in Afghanistan, near the border between Pakistan and
6 Afghanistan, we got camp over there, and at that time run by
7 Ibrahim al Rari, and I saw the guy over there and he got
8 trained over there.
9 Q. Didn't you tell the United States agents on October 22,
10 1996, that you never actually seen Ramzi Ahmed Yusef?
11 A. What I tell them, I see the guy in south camp in the
12 border between Afghanistan and Pakistan and the camp is named
13 Sada camp.
14 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, on October 22, 1996, did you tell the
15 American agents that you never actually seen Ramzi Ahmed
16 Yusef?
17 A. No, I don't remember I tell them that. Maybe somebody
18 type it wrong or somebody, he not understand what I am talking
19 about, but I saw the guy in Sada camp in the border of the
20 camp between Afghanistan and Pakistan.
21 Q. I am going to show you page 150 of what is marked 3501-45.
22 Do you read English?
23 A. A little bit.
24 Q. I want you to read the second and third sentence in this,
25 and you tell me if this refreshes your recollection.
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1 A. OK.
2 THE COURT: Understand, the question isn't what it
3 says on that document. The question is whether seeing that it
4 refreshes your recollection as to what you said. Do you
5 understand that difference?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 MR. SCHMIDT: May I approach the witness?
8 THE COURT: Yes.
9 (Document translated)
10 A. The group --
11 THE COURT: No. You are asked a question that calls
12 for a yes or no answer. The question is whether reading that
13 refreshes your recollection as to what you had told the
14 Americans.
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. In fact, didn't you tell the Americans after 20 or so
17 meetings that in fact you never saw Ramzi Yusef?
18 A. What here --
19 Q. Yes, no, Mr. Fadl.
20 A. No.
21 MR. SCHMIDT: May I have that paper back.
22 Q. Did you call Mr. Ramzi Yusef the mastermind of the World
23 Trade Center bombing?
24 A. No, they have nickname for him but I don't remember his
25 name now.
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1 Q. Did you call him the mastermind of the World Trade Center
2 bombing?
3 A. No, I don't call him that.
4 Q. In fact, isn't that what you said to the Americans, that
5 you knew the mastermind, you trained with the mastermind of
6 the World Trade Center bombing, Ramzi Yusef, on your first or
7 second interview with the American agents? Isn't that
8 correct?
9 A. Yes, I told them I saw the guy in Sada camp, the border of
10 Pakistan and Afghanistan.
11 Q. Didn't you tell them, the Americans, in the first
12 interview, that you were the chief of security for Usama Bin
13 Laden for a year?
14 A. Bodyguard?
15 Q. Chief of security.
16 A. Me or who?
17 Q. Did you tell the Americans the first time you came in to
18 sell yourself to the Americans --
19 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form.
20 THE COURT: Yes, sustained as to form. Restart your
21 question.
22 Q. The first time that you came to see the Americans, didn't
23 you tell them that you were the chief of security for Mr. Bin
24 Laden for a year?
25 A. Yes, I bodyguard for him and I traveled with him inside
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1 Khartoum, Damazine, Kassala, Damazine. Yes, I bodyguard for
2 him.
3 MR. SCHMIDT: I ask the interpreter to interpret my
4 next question.
5 Q. Didn't you tell the Americans that you were chief of
6 security for Bin Laden for one year? (Interpreted)
7 A. It's not year but I remember I run the people that do
8 security.
9 Q. My question, Mr. Al-Fadl, is simple, and please translate
10 it.
11 Did you tell the American agents that you were the
12 chief of security for Bin Laden for one year?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That was a lie, wasn't it?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You haven't described your role during my --
17 THE COURT: Are you going to ask a question now?
18 MR. SCHMIDT: I will withdraw and rephrase that.
19 Q. When in your description of the jobs that you did for Bin
20 Laden that you just testified to that you were the chief of
21 security?
22 A. Any time he call me and he say we want to go to Damazine
23 camp and I need to be with me for security I go for few days
24 and we come back. Sometimes I go Saba, Kassala, sometimes the
25 Soba farm number one, and that is security work.
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1 Q. And this is your definition of chief of security, is that
2 what you're saying?
3 A. Yes, when I go with him he drive me and I know him in the
4 end of '88 and that's part of the security.
5 Q. Tell us what other role as chief of security -- withdrawn.
6 What other activities did you do as chief of security
7 for Mr. Bin Laden during that time?
8 A. When we working interrogation office we check everybody
9 come to the al Qaeda group, the new people and that security,
10 too.
11 Q. Okay. That's part of your role as chief of security?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Anything else entailed --
14 A. They will come to --
15 THE COURT: Wait a minute.
16 Q. Let me finish my question.
17 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Slow down. Ask the
18 question, permit the witness to answer the question before you
19 ask another question, and let's start over again.
20 MR. SCHMIDT: He interrupted my question.
21 THE COURT: You were both talking at the same time.
22 Q. Is there any -- what other responsibilities did you have
23 as the chief of security for Mr. Bin Laden during that time?
24 A. We have a lot of places and Damazine farm in Khartoum. We
25 ship, if we have meetings we checked everybody, we try make
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1 everything secure in the guest house or farm.
2 Q. How many times did you go to say Damazine farm?
3 A. Different times.
4 Q. How many times?
5 A. I don't remember how many times but different times.
6 Q. One time, two times, ten times, twenty times?
7 A. More than two or three or four.
8 MR. FITZGERALD: Time frame, Judge?
9 THE COURT: Time frame.
10 Q. While you lived in the Sudan how many times did you go to
11 Damazine?
12 A. In '92, '93, '94.
13 Q. Sir, how many times did you go to Damazine?
14 A. I don't remember how many time exactly. It could be more
15 than five, six, seven.
16 Q. Haven't you previously -- haven't you told the Americans
17 that you went to the Damazine farm on two occasions and two
18 occasions only?
19 A. No, more than that.
20 Q. What else did you do as chief of security?
21 A. Our companies also if anybody come to the company he
22 should sign his name, he should sign his name, put his name
23 and we see his ID card. We want to see who, also, we do that
24 in all the companies.
25 Q. Anything else?
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1 A. We make report about a lot of other groups in Sudan, and
2 some groups the workers name is Bin Laden group and again.
3 Q. Anything else?
4 A. And we work try to make sure he good.
5 Q. Is there any reason, Mr. Al Fadl, that when I was asking
6 you earlier today about the different roles and jobs that you
7 had for Mr. Bin Laden that you left out your job as chief of
8 security?
9 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: No, I'll allow it.
11 A. Could you repeat your question?
12 Q. You translate this, please.
13 Is there any reason when I asked you all your jobs
14 and your roles that you did for Mr. Bin Laden from 1989 to
15 1994, you left out that you were the chief of security?
16 (Through the interpreter)
17 A. I really misunderstand your question.
18 Q. Excuse me?
19 A. I'm not understanding your question.
20 MR. SCHMIDT: Please translate.
21 Q. (Through the interpreter). Earlier today I'd asked you a
22 number of questions concerning what kind of work you did for
23 Mr. Bin Laden, remember that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And I asked you what else did you do? What else did you
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1 do? What else did you do? Remember that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then I asked you was there anything else that you did
4 and you said, no?
5 A. I don't remember. What I remember I tell you already.
6 Q. Why did you not tell us about such important job as chief
7 of security for Bin Laden? Why did you not tell us about
8 that?
9 A. I don't remember and I tell you now there is nothing for
10 my to hide. We work in the business, we work in security, we
11 work in training, in the camps. We do different jobs.
12 Q. So when I questioned you earlier you forgot about being
13 the chief of security for Bin Laden, is that right?
14 A. Yes. All you question about the business. You focus on
15 business areas. That's why I just give you answer for
16 business.
17 Q. Now, you also told the government, the first time that you
18 saw him, that you knew Usama Bin Laden in Afghanistan from
19 1986 to 1989. Remember telling them that?
20 A. No, '87 when I work in Brooklyn Mustafa Shalabi and the
21 newspaper come, and that time we know who is Bin Laden, but
22 the first time in during '88.
23 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, didn't you tell the Americans the first time
24 you met them, that, oh, I know Bin Laden Afghanistan from 1986
25 to 1989?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Didn't you tell them that?
3 A. No, because I came to United States in '86 and I left
4 United States end of '87.
5 Q. I'm going to ask you to take a look at a document marked
6 3501-45, page 1 at the bottom the last paragraph.
7 May I approach the witness, your Honor?
8 THE COURT: Certainly. Mr. Schmidt, let me know when
9 you're on a new topic.
10 (Document handed to witness)
11 (Pause)
12 (Witness consults with interpreter)
13 A. When I tell them that I talk about the time include when I
14 was in Farouk Mosque in Brooklyn.
15 Q. Did you say to the Americans that you knew Bin Laden
16 Afghanistan during '86 to '89 time frame? Didn't you say
17 that?
18 A. No, I don't remember.
19 Q. You told us about a little bit about your American wife.
20 Remember testifying here last week?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you told us that when you believed it was the right
23 time to go to Afghanistan at the end of 1988 you told her
24 you're leaving, right?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And you said, I don't know if I'm coming back and you
2 left, right?
3 A. Yes. I tell her I want to go to Afghanistan and maybe I'm
4 never going to come back.
5 Q. Now, you didn't divorce her, is that correct?
6 A. No.
7 Q. No one forced you to go to Afghanistan, did they?
8 A. What?
9 Q. No one forced you to go to Afghanistan, did they?
10 A. At that time I work in Farouk Mosque and they tell me go
11 to Afghanistan, I go.
12 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, you went to Afghanistan because you thought
13 it was the right thing to do, isn't that right?
14 A. I work at that time with Mustafa Shalabi in Farouk Mosque
15 in Brooklyn, we bring donation to the office and they send the
16 donation from Brooklyn to Afghanistan.
17 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, do you think that the fight against the
18 Russian communists by the Afghan mujahideen and the other
19 Muslim volunteers was a good thing?
20 A. I don't believe that. If he would tell me Farouk Mosque
21 about what's going on there, and that's why I go.
22 Q. So when you went over.
23 A. When you go somewhere, you need somebody to tell you about
24 that.
25 Q. So when you went to the -- so when you were raising money
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1 for the Afghan resistance against the Russian communists you
2 didn't know anything about it?
3 A. The people tell me how it started, I started that I will
4 come when I work, and they tell me, look, you Muslim come to
5 the mosque, bring donation, inform other people and I work
6 with them in Brooklyn and after that they tell me better for
7 you to go over there and I make my decision and I went over
8 there.
9 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, did you know about the Russians invading
10 Afghanistan --
11 A. Came from the news, but news is not enough.
12 Q. Please let me finish my question, Mr. Al Fadl?
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. Did you know about the Russians invading Afghanistan when
15 you were living in the Sudan?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You had no idea?
18 A. Only here when I come to the United States.
19 Q. You never heard about the Russian invasion of Afghanistan
20 until you came --
21 A. Just from the news.
22 Q. Do you know about it from the news while you were in the
23 Sudan?
24 A. I, yes.
25 Q. But it wasn't any of your concern?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. And you came to the United States?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you ended up in Brooklyn, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You ended up going to a mosque in Brooklyn where they
7 talked about what was going on in Afghanistan?
8 A. No, actually I work in grocery and somebody, two guys,
9 three came and start talking, tell me come to the mosque,
10 their lecture something about Afghanistan, if you want to know
11 that's good for you.
12 Q. So when you went around getting donations did you think it
13 was a good thing?
14 A. Yeah, after they tell me and give me details, yes, I think
15 that's a good idea.
16 Q. Did you think it was a good thing?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. About all the people trying to force the Russian
19 communists out of Afghanistan?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. Did you support them?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You supported them by working and getting money, is that
24 right?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And you knew that Muslims from around the world were going
2 to Afghanistan to actually help fight or help relief work in
3 Afghanistan?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, before you were asked to go, did you have any
6 thoughts about that might be a good thing for you to do?
7 A. Well, when I hear the first one they tell me about the
8 fatwa I say, well, that's a good idea, because Bin Laden Abdul
9 Azzam, they make lecture in jihad magazine, and we read the
10 magazine in Brooklyn, and we see, well, this is fatwa.
11 Q. So you were following what was going on in Afghanistan at
12 the mosque, at the Afghani Center or was that --
13 A. Farouk Mosque.
14 Q. Mektab?
15 A. Yes, Farouk Mosque is --
16 Q. Al kafar ring a bell?
17 A. Mosque Al kafar.
18 Q. And you're reading the jihad magazine?
19 A. Yes. Mustafa Shalabi every magazine he give it to us and
20 we read it.
21 Q. You knew that the Afghanis themselves were seeking help
22 from Muslims to fight the Russians to throw them out of their
23 country, right?
24 A. Correct, yes.
25 Q. The Afghanis invited, they wanted people to come and help
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1 them, right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you read about what Bin Laden was doing, right?
4 A. Bin Laden and Azzam.
5 Q. And what Mr. Azzam was doing, right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You thought that it would be a good thing for you as a
8 person reestablishing your Muslim identity to go and help the
9 Afghanis, is that right?
10 A. Yes, they say you have to.
11 Q. Well, did you take the request to go to Afghanistan as an
12 order?
13 A. Yes, because fatwa Islam mean like you have to, better
14 than do business or support your wife or kids, that I call it
15 for the fatwa.
16 Q. Fatwa means that you have to think about what people say
17 to see if you believe it's correct?
18 A. No, fatwa is different. Fatwa means when the people tell
19 you the jihad in Afghanistan fardh al khafiya means you have
20 to go by yourself to leave everything and go.
21 Q. Isn't that the very big difference between Sunni and the
22 Shia?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Right. In the Shiites if the leader, if the imam, the
25 leader, says something is true you follow it, right?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. But in the Sunni there is no leader like that, right?
3 A. Because we don't have.
4 Q. Right. You have scholars who give their argument to you
5 why this is correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And what a fatwa is simply is if it's a proper fatwa is
10 issued by a scholar who says, this is what you should be done
11 and because of the reasons?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And they explain it in order to convince each individual
14 Muslim of, that they're correct in doing this fatwa?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In fact, all through the Muslim Sunni world it's different
17 scholars say different things, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And it's your responsibility, your ultimate responsibility
20 as a good Muslim to make that determination on your own that
21 this is a proper fatwa?
22 A. No, no. Because if you think about the religion by itself
23 is not right, because the scholar he bring the fatwa from the
24 Holy Koran from what prophet Mohammed say from what the
25 scholar in history say, so when he tell you about the fatwa
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1 not about what he think about the Holy Koran.
2 Q. But aren't there times when there are different fatwas
3 that are issued that are complete opposite things, right?
4 A. Yeah, but that time --
5 Q. Mr.
6 A. The scholar --
7 THE COURT: The question is, right? Now he's
8 answering your question.
9 Q. Now --
10 THE COURT: He's answers.
11 MR. SCHMIDT: He's going beyond, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Mr. Reporter, read the question.
13 (Record read)
14 A. At that time the most of the scholars in Arab countries
15 and even the United States they say jihad in Afghanistan, and
16 that means you have fardh al khafiya, but you can't even think
17 about because you have to do just like prayer.
18 Q. A good example. In Afghanistan all of the scholars agreed
19 that it was an obligation of good Muslims around the world to
20 help their Afghani brothers throw out the Russians, right?
21 A. It's not so you have to. That's --
22 Q. Your obligation to help them throw out the Russians?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Because the Afghanis requested help, it was a enemy that
25 was anti-Muslim that invaded their own country, so everybody
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1 agreed, right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, there are times when they don't always agree, these
4 scholars, right?
5 A. Well, all the scholars they agree because it's in the
6 paper.
7 Q. Now, let's use the interpreter.
8 (Through the interpreter). There are times when
9 these scholars don't always agree about things other than
10 Afghanistan, isn't that correct?
11 THE INTERPRETER: That means all the scholars agree
12 and there are times --
13 Q. A good example of when scholars do not agree was about the
14 American presence in Saudi Arabia, isn't that right?
15 A. I don't understand.
16 MR. SCHMIDT: Would you please translate that.
17 (Through the interpreter)
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And when the scholars do not agree it's the individual
20 Muslim who has the religious obligation to think and make
21 their own decision as to what they believe is proper, isn't
22 that correct?
23 A. No, is not correct.
24 Q. Are you saying that if someone issues, if some supposed
25 scholar issues a fatwa that you personally believe is against
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1 Islam that --
2 A. Because --
3 Q. -- should still follow it?
4 A. If the fatwa about something like jihad is different than
5 fatwa about prayer, because is all scholar they make same
6 fatwa for jihad we follow them, but if some scholar they say
7 is not jihad, some scholars they say is jihad, we leave it.
8 I'm not going to follow this or this until they came together
9 and this is example for fardh al khafiya you all came together
10 they agreed, but now a lot of groups in Arab countries they
11 say when jihad in that country some scholars they say no, so
12 the people they say no, we don't do jihad.
13 Q. And a good Muslim then would say, I'm not going to follow?
14 A. Until the scholars come together.
15 Q. Now, let's go back to where it started. You left your
16 wife and you went to Afghanistan, is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, the government said to you on direct examination,
19 asked you in Islam are you allowed more than one wife?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You said yes?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you explain that to the government when you were
24 talking with them years ago about how you are allowed to have
25 more than one wife in Islam?
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1 A. I don't remember the conversation exactly, but Islam is
2 you have more than one four wives that's allowed to go.
3 Q. And the government accepted the fact that it was perfectly
4 permissible in Islam for you to have more than one wife,
5 right?
6 A. In Islam, yes, if you have --
7 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
8 A. If you have more than one wife okay.
9 THE COURT: Objection is sustained. The question and
10 answer stricken. You want to pursue it, ask another question.
11 Q. Did any representative of the government say to you at any
12 time that, no, what you did was wrong about marrying the
13 American woman?
14 A. I really don't remember.
15 THE COURT: Wrong about marrying the American woman?
16 MR. SCHMIDT: Right.
17 A. I don't remember.
18 Q. You don't remember them saying anything like that?
19 A. It could be, but I didn't remember now. If I remember I
20 say, you know, I'm glad to tell you.
21 Q. You were married already in the Sudan before you came to
22 the United States, is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, in fact, it's not simply, it's not permissible simply
25 to get up and marry a second or a third or fourth wife just
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1 because you decide, isn't that correct?
2 A. Because in Islam, yes, if you marry one or more than one,
3 that's okay.
4 Q. Isn't -- doesn't Islam require that you obtain the
5 permission of your first wife to marry a second wife?
6 A. If you tell her, that's great, if you don't tell her.
7 Q. Isn't it required in Islam that before you take a second
8 wife that you obtain the permission of the first wife?
9 A. Some scholar they say you have to. Some scholars they say
10 no. If you married then after that you tell her, that's also
11 okay.
12 Q. And how many years do you have to tell your second wife
13 that, your first wife that you've taken a second wife?
14 A. Well, the worst thing if you tell her right away is good
15 for you and her.
16 Q. This is one of the things where scholars disagree and you
17 decided to follow the scholars that say you can go to another
18 country and marry a woman and not tell anybody?
19 A. No, not because I follow other scholar but I make mistake
20 like everybody you know, I didn't tell my wife, the first
21 wife.
22 Q. Well, isn't it a fact that another one of the rules about
23 taking more than one wife is not to cause any distress to the
24 first wife, the main wife, the first wife, isn't that true?
25 A. Well, look, I love her so much I say the first one, but
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1 when I come here I feel like if I marry it's better for me.
2 Q. In other words, when you want to do something that you
3 want to do, you don't care what Islam says, isn't that right?
4 A. I didn't say I don't care, but I say I make mistake I
5 should tell my first wife I'm in United States, I want to
6 protect myself to marry the woman, I should tell her that, but
7 I make mistake and I didn't tell her.
8 Q. How did you treat your second wife?
9 A. Very good.
10 Q. Very good? And was it very good when you said, bye honey,
11 I'm going to Afghanistan?
12 A. No. No, I didn't told her, bye, honey. I tell her I want
13 to go to Afghanistan. I don't know if I go to die over there
14 because the Afghan, but I didn't her like I go to grocery
15 store, I go to --
16 Q. Were you sending money back to your first wife when you
17 were in the United States?
18 A. Could you repeat the question?
19 Q. Were you sending money back to your first wife when you
20 were in the United States?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Without your second wife knowing about it?
23 A. The first, the wife here?
24 Q. The first wife is in the Sudan, right?
25 A. Yes, the first wife in Sudan.
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1 Q. Then you came to the United States, right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You started working, you got married, you're a lonely man
4 in the United States, you got married, right, and intimate
5 marital relations with her. Did you send money to support
6 your first wife in the Sudan?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. And your second wife didn't know about it. You did it
9 behind her back?
10 A. No, I didn't tell her.
11 Q. And how much money have you given your second wife since
12 you come back to the United States?
13 A. The wife I live here in the United States?
14 Q. Yes?
15 A. I pay for the rents every week $50.
16 Q. To which wife?
17 A. The wife here.
18 Q. Do you have a child with her?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So you've been since you're back in the United States
21 you're giving your first wife $50?
22 A. No, no, no, I talk about the wife here in the United
23 States, we share the apartment, and I pay the rent every week,
24 $50. I buy some food and other stuff.
25 THE COURT: What time interval are we talking about?
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1 Q. That's when you were in the United States living with her?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, you told the Americans the first day that you started
4 talking to them that you were forced by your superiors to
5 divorce your American wife?
6 A. I not understand what you said.
7 MR. SCHMIDT: Can you translate, please.
8 (Through the interpreter)
9 A. The people I work with in Brooklyn they tell me you have
10 to go to Afghanistan and you have fatwa.
11 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, did you tell the Americans that you were
12 forced by your superiors to divorce your first wife after one
13 year?
14 A. When I talk about the fatwa.
15 Q. Mr. Al Fadl --
16 Can we have the question translated please?
17 I'll rephrase the question.
18 Mr. Al Fadl, did you tell the Americans that you were
19 forced by your superiors to divorce your American wife after
20 one year?
21 A. Yes. But I talk about the fatwa, 'cause I have to go to
22 Afghanistan.
23 Q. Did you tell the Americans that you traveled to the United
24 States in 1985 or 1986 for Islamic military training on the
25 second interview with the Americans?
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1 A. No, no. When I came to United States here? No.
2 Q. I'm going to ask you --
3 A. I don't remember that at all.
4 Q. I'm going to ask you to take a look and this is marked
5 3501-35, page 4, I'm marking now where I want you to take a
6 look.
7 Please have the interpreter translate it for you.
8 May I approach the witness, your Honor?
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 (Document handed to witness)
11 (Through the interpreter)
12 THE INTERPRETER: Which paragraph?
13 A. No, I never remember, I never tell them that.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, this may be a good point to
16 break.
17 THE COURT: We'll take our mid-morning recess at this
18 point.
19 (Recess)
20 (In open court; jury not present)
21 THE COURT: Please be seated. The Marshal tells me
22 one of the jurors just learned that his mother passed away and
23 he's on the phone.
24 (Pause)
25 (In open court; jury present)
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1 THE COURT: The witness may resume the stand.
2 (Witness resumed)
3 THE COURT: Mr. Schmidt, you may continue.
4 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, how much was it for an application to the
5 University of Georgia?
6 A. I don't remember.
7 Q. How many pages was the application that you had to fill
8 out to go to the University of Georgia?
9 A. I remember my brother Ibrahim he bring the application for
10 me. I don't remember it's two or three weeks.
11 Q. Did you have to provide any other information to the
12 University of Georgia to get admitted to the University of
13 Georgia?
14 A. I remember at that time my brother Ibrahim and my cousin
15 they tried to help me, but they said they need the high school
16 for Sudan and other stuff.
17 Q. How much did you pay for the first semester for the
18 school?
19 A. We got the first semester, I don't know it's six hundred
20 for just English for two months.
21 Q. At that time in 1986 your English wasn't as good as it is
22 now, is that right?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Now, in fact, you never went to the University of Georgia
25 is that right?
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1 A. Well, I tried to, but I didn't finish all the paperwork,
2 but I took the semester for English.
3 Q. But when you went to the US embassy to get a visa to go to
4 the United States you told them that you were going to be a
5 student at the University of Georgia, didn't you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you had a visa, a student visa based on your sworn
8 statement to the United States counsulate, isn't that right?
9 A. Yes, you call it I20.
10 Q. You had to make sworn statements to get that visa, didn't
11 you?
12 A. Well, I did the application and I got the visa.
13 MR. SCHMIDT: Could you translate this, please?
14 (Through the interpreter)
15 Q. You had to make sworn statements at the United States
16 counsulate that you were going to college for you to get the
17 visa, isn't that correct?
18 (Through the interpreter)
19 A. No, they don't do that with me. They just give me
20 application and they give me something they call it I20. I20
21 is for people who go for student.
22 Q. To had fill out that accurately, is that correct?
23 A. Yes. They ask you what school you went to in Sudan and
24 who is going to support you and you bring that from your dad
25 and you bring the ticket.
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1 Q. And you have to swear an oath that your application is
2 accurate and are not lies, isn't that right?
3 A. No, you bring letter for whatever he going to support the
4 trip and your child in the United States and I bring that
5 letter from my dad.
6 Q. You came to the United States. You landed in New York, is
7 that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you went to the mosque in New York and you obtained
10 employment, is that right?
11 A. I remember I went to New York. After that I went to
12 Atlanta, Georgia and after that I came back again to New York
13 and I stay in Brooklyn.
14 Q. You never went to school in the United States, is that
15 correct?
16 A. Well, I try, I said that, and after that I change my mind
17 because it cost a lot of money and I decide not to.
18 THE COURT: Mr. Al Fadl, please listen to the
19 question, and if the question could be answered yes or no
20 answer it yes or no. Don't give your reason, but just answer
21 the question.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay.
23 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, you had a series of conversations from
24 September 7th into November with agents at the US embassy; is
25 that correct?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. These were not FBI agents; is that correct?
3 A. I don't know what kind of agents but I know they're from
4 the government.
5 Q. But then there came another point in time December of
6 1996, when you started talking to FBI agents who identified
7 themselves as FBI agents, is that correct?
8 A. Yes, after that we went to Europe and I talk with other
9 people.
10 Q. But that first series of interviews, those were about
11 thirty or so different days that you were interviewed, right?
12 A. Yes, it could be around three weeks.
13 Q. Now, the first one was December 6, 1996. Would that be
14 about right?
15 A. In Nigeria.
16 Q. The first interviews the first time that you came into
17 talk to the Americans?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In December?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So it was a lot more than three weeks?
22 A. Could be.
23 Q. Now, during that time you were asked questions about and
24 you volunteered information about different people that you
25 knew from the Sudan, is that correct?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. From Afghanistan?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. People involved with Bin Laden?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And people involved with the NIF?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And other people that you came in contact with during the
11 years of 1986, when you came to the United States to the year
12 that you, 1996, when you started talking to the Americans. Is
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that first thirty or so meetings you gave them
16 hundreds of names, is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Some of them that you mentioned on your own. Is that
19 right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And some of them that they asked you about?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Right? Do you know such and such, right?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. The other ones were ones, I work with this person and this
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1 person, right?
2 Do you recall the first occasion that you mentioned
3 in some name or form Wadih El Hage?
4 A. At what time?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. I don't understand.
7 Q. How many days or how many interviews went by before you
8 mentioned a person that you now claim to be Wadih El Hage in
9 your interviews, not with the FBI in Europe, but those earlier
10 interviews?
11 A. If I remember right I think in Europe when I was in
12 Europe.
13 Q. The first time that you talked about Wadih El Hage was in
14 Europe with the FBI, is that your testimony?
15 A. I'm not sure, but it could be in Europe when I was in
16 Europe.
17 Q. You told -- before you went to Europe, you told the
18 government every Abu name that you knew of, isn't that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You did not say Abu Abdallah meaning Mr. El Hage during
21 those first thirty or thirty-five interviews you had with the
22 United States government, isn't that correct?
23 A. I really don't remember.
24 Q. Your present memory is the first time -- withdrawn.
25 Did you ever use the name El Hage in the thirty or so
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1 times or two and a half months that you were interviewed by
2 the people before you went to Europe?
3 A. Really don't remember. What I remember in Europe, we talk
4 about Wadih El Hage.
5 Q. But while you were in, before you went to Europe, during
6 all those interviews the government agents were asking you
7 about all the people that were involved in al Qaeda; is that
8 correct? Isn't that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you named hundreds of people, didn't you?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And you did not mention Wadih El Hage?
13 A. I don't remember.
14 Q. Isn't that correct?
15 A. I don't remember.
16 Q. Do you remember saying anything about Wadih El Hage to the
17 agents before you went to Europe?
18 A. I really don't remember.
19 Q. The answer is yes, I do not remember ever saying anything
20 about Wadih El Hage, is that correct?
21 A. I do not remember if I say or I don't say.
22 Q. What at this particular time is the first thing that you
23 remember telling any government agent outside of Europe or
24 Europe about Wadih El Hage?
25 A. I remember one time we talk in about him in Europe. But I
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1 didn't remember if I talk about him before Europe or no.
2 Q. Isn't it a fact that the first time that the name of Wadih
3 El Hage came up was when the FBI asked you what you know about
4 Wadih El Hage on October 23, 1997?
5 A. I really don't remember.
6 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, you have told us that you remembered hundreds
7 of names Abu names, person's given names and you told them all
8 to the government, and it is your testimony here today that
9 you don't remember when the first time you were asked about
10 Wadih El Hage? Is that your testimony?
11 A. I don't remember when they asked me. I don't remember
12 when they asked me. But I remember they asked me about him
13 but I didn't remember which year or which month they asked me
14 about, and if I remember, I'd be glad to tell you.
15 Q. Wasn't it the government who first mentioned Wadih El
16 Hage's name and not you?
17 A. I really don't remember if I mention it or the government
18 mention it and what time, what year, what month, I really
19 don't remember.
20 Q. It was more than one year after you started talking to the
21 United States that the government asked you about Wadih El
22 Hage, isn't that correct, Mr. Al Fadl?
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. When was the first time that Mr. El Hage's name Abu
25 Abdallah came up?
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1 A. I really don't remember.
2 Q. Was it before or after you discussed with the government
3 the name Wadih El Hage?
4 A. I really don't remember which year or which month they
5 asked me or I mentioned or they mentioned it to me.
6 Q. My question is --
7 Can you interpret this, please?
8 Did the name Abu Abdullah al Lubnani, come up before
9 or after the mentioning of Wadih El Hage?
10 (Through the interpreter)
11 THE INTERPRETER: The name is Abdallah what? I did
12 not hear.
13 MR. SCHMIDT: Lubnani.
14 (Through the interpreter)
15 A. What I remember saying I think it was yes, El Hage, yes.
16 Q. Did you know him? You claim to know him by any other name
17 than Abu Abdullah al Lubnani and Wadih El Hage?
18 A. I think in Afghanistan.
19 Q. Where in Afghanistan was this?
20 A. I remember I saw him in Afghanistan in the shower in the
21 camp, in the first camp.
22 Q. In what year was this?
23 A. I really don't remember if '91 or '2 or '90, I really
24 don't remember.
25 Q. You say it could have been '91 or '92?
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1 A. I really don't remember, but area like '92.
2 Q. Which arm of Mr. El Hage is whithered?
3 A. Well, at that time I saw different time Mr. Abu.
4 MR. SCHMIDT: Could you interpret the question?
5 Which arm of Mr. El Hage is whithered?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Is what?
7 MR. SCHMIDT: Whithered.
8 (Through the interpreter)
9 A. I really don't remember.
10 Q. Do you know what hand he writes with?
11 A. I really don't remember.
12 Q. Do you know the name of any of his children other than
13 Abdallah?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know what house he lived in when he was in Sudan?
16 A. I remember he live in a building near the Al Qaeda
17 organization, and under his house is if I remember right is
18 pharmacy.
19 Q. Do you know -- withdrawn. He worked in the office at
20 McNimr Street?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did he work anywhere else to your knowledge?
23 A. Well, I saw him in McNimr Street and I saw him sometime in
24 farm with the meeting, sometime in guest houses.
25 Q. I asked you did you ever see him work in a different
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1 office?
2 A. In the guest house the people come to the guest house it's
3 work, because the people in al Qaeda group if you not in al
4 Qaeda group you can't go to the guest house, and when you go
5 over there you go for lecture or fatwa or meeting or talking,
6 and that's part of our job.
7 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, do you know what I mean?
8 A. That was my answer, so what do you mean?
9 Q. Do you know if he worked in any other office?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What other office?
12 A. In the guest houses, in the farm.
13 Q. What offices are in the guest houses?
14 A. For the meetings, are all the membership they come to the
15 meetings.
16 Q. Offices in the guest house?
17 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 A. In the guest houses.
20 THE COURT: The question is asked and answered. Ask
21 the next question.
22 Q. Is there any other offices for any of Mr. Bin Laden's
23 businesses other than at McNimr Street?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Where?
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1 A. We have construction office, we have office, and we have
2 office in middle Khartoum.
3 Q. Now, do you understand what I mean when I say office, Mr.
4 Al Fadl?
5 A. When you talk about office I --
6 Q. Mr. Al Fadl?
7 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor. May he
8 answer the question?
9 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, would you instruct the
10 witness when I ask him the question that requires a yes or no
11 answer that's all that he has to do, we won't have this.
12 THE COURT: Ask the question that can clearly and
13 fairly be answered by a yes or no answer, I'll direct the
14 witness to answer yes or no.
15 Q. I ask you do you now know what I mean by office, Mr. Al
16 Fadl?
17 A. Would you repeat the question?
18 Q. Do you now know what I mean by office, Mr. Al Fadl?
19 A. What you talk about business or the group?
20 Q. The business.
21 THE COURT: Why don't you define office, and then ask
22 your question based on your definition.
23 Q. The business offices that you just described?
24 A. Yes, I saw him sometime in construction, and also with at
25 Themar al Mubaraka company.
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1 Q. Did you ever see him work out of the office other than
2 McNimr office, not visit, but work out of the office?
3 A. Well, I know when he was in Ibrahim he worked with him,
4 and sometimes I know he helped with al Qudurat construction.
5 Q. In the other offices that you know that he worked out of
6 other than the al Qudurat?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And the office in McNimr any other offices that you --
9 A. I saw different times Bareba commission company.
10 Q. Where was that located?
11 A. That in Burton building in middle Khartoum.
12 Q. Any other offices you see him work out of, not visit to
13 have a meeting, but to work out where he had a desk or an
14 office?
15 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form.
16 THE COURT: Are you defining office now as a place
17 where he had a desk?
18 MR. SCHMIDT: Work out of, defining where he had a
19 desk.
20 THE COURT: I sustain the objection to form. The
21 question is so vague. Having a conversation making telephone
22 calls, define business.
23 Q. In McNimr Street Mr. El Hage had a desk. Is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And a telephone; is that right?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And papers there, is that right?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Did he ever have a desk in any other business office
5 related to the Usama Bin Laden?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And its your testimony that you're a close associate of
8 Mr. Usama Bin Laden, is that right?
9 A. Yes, I work with him for nine years.
10 Q. Did you ever tell -- did you ever -- you've testified on
11 direct examination about certain documents. You testified
12 about going to get some passports for one of your travels. Do
13 you remember that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You mentioned a person you dealt with. Who was that
16 person? Did they have an office where they dealt with the
17 passport issues?
18 A. At what time?
19 Q. The time that you went to see him?
20 A. Where in Sudan or Afghanistan?
21 Q. In the Sudan?
22 A. Got office in McNimr Street and after that he moved to
23 Wadi company and after this they moved to the big guest house.
24 Q. Now, you remember you testified that you went to get your
25 passport from them and that you saw somebody there who was
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1 Abdullah Sabbur?
2 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Wait just one moment.
4 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection. Characterization of the
5 prior testimony.
6 THE COURT: Restate your question.
7 MR. SCHMIDT: Excuse me, your Honor?
8 THE COURT: Restate your question.
9 Q. You remember your testimony about your trip to Egypt?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Remember testifying that you went to an office to get the
12 documents. You remember that?
13 A. But that's in Afghanistan, not in the Sudan.
14 Q. In the Sudan?
15 A. No. What I remember I tell them I went that I can
16 Pakistan, because I went to Egypt from Pakistan.
17 Q. What year was that?
18 A. I really don't remember.
19 Q. It's 1991 or 1992?
20 A. No, before '92.
21 Q. 1991?
22 A. I really not sure, if '90 or '91.
23 Q. You said that you saw Tamsa Al Nibi?
24 A. Hamdala.
25 Q. Excuse me?
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1 A. Hamdala Al Nibi.
2 Q. Where were they?
3 A. In the shower, and before I had a bath in the shower we
4 had office over there.
5 Q. Now, you said there is a time you met somebody named Abu
6 Abd al Sabbur?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. But you had no dealings with him there?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, it's not your testimony that Abu al Sabbur is Mr. El
11 Hage, is it?
12 A. No, what I tell them I'm not sure if Wadih El Hage or
13 somebody different.
14 Q. So it's your testimony now that you might have seen Mr. El
15 Hage back in Afghanistan when you were -- Pakistan -- when you
16 were picking up your documents to travel?
17 A. No. I tell them the guy he have the documents in that
18 office, I'm not sure if it is Wadih El Hage or somebody else
19 but I didn't tell them I never see them, I see him in the
20 guest house in a different time.
21 Q. But you said that the person that you saw, but didn't deal
22 with, was a person named Abdel al Sabbur, right, that's the
23 words you used?
24 A. That's what people called him. His nickname is Al Sabbur.
25 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
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1 Q. You know him, Mr. El Hage, you know his name, he's sitting
2 right over there, is that correct?
3 A. Yes, I know his name is Wadi El Hage.
4 Q. So if it was Mr. El Hage sitting there, you would have
5 said it was Mr. Wadih El Hage, is that right?
6 A. No, because Abdullah and they help me with that trip so I
7 didn't deal with him, and sometime you go inside the office
8 then you see people sitting, but after a few months you don't
9 remember, you know, who is exactly. That's why I tell them
10 I'm not sure is Wadih or somebody else.
11 Q. Mr. El Hage obviously did not leave an impression on you
12 very much when it took you over a year to even talk with him
13 about the government, is that correct?
14 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
15 THE COURT: Sustained.
16 Q. Are you known also as Abu Ubaidah?
17 A. Know what?
18 Q. Are you known also as Abu Ubaidah?
19 A. I don't remember, because the people switch the nicknames.
20 Could be one person he got five nicknames.
21 THE COURT: The question is whether the witness was
22 known by that name?
23 MR. SCHMIDT: Yes, that's my question.
24 A. I don't remember.
25 Q. Let me make sure that we have no misunderstanding.
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1 Could we translate this, please?
2 THE INTERPRETER: Sure.
3 Q. Are you -- Mr. Al Fadl, ever been known or called Abu
4 Ubaidah?
5 A. Me?
6 (Through the interpreter)
7 A. No, Abu Kastani and Abu Kazam.
8 Q. Do you know any other Sudanese who worked for Mr. Bin
9 Laden who stole money from him?
10 A. Abu Suree. One guy his name Abu Suree.
11 Q. This is a Sudanese?
12 A. No, he's Sudian.
13 Q. I'm asking you do you know any other Sudanese who stole
14 money from Mr. Bin Laden?
15 A. I don't remember.
16 Q. You don't know or you don't remember?
17 A. I know, but I don't remember now.
18 Q. Now, Mr. Al Fadl, you told us a little bit of a speech I
19 think that you said Abu Hajer --
20 MR. FITZGERALD: Withdrawn.
21 Q. -- gave concerning the declarations of Mohammed Ibn
22 Tamiyeh. Do you remember that?
23 A. Yes, I remember the speech.
24 Q. And it involved the war with the Tartars, the Tartars?
25 A. Tarta, yes.
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1 Q. And you said that in that speech that Mohammed Ibn
2 Tamiyeh?
3 A. Ahmed.
4 Q. Ahmed?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Ibn Tamiyeh said that it was okay just to kill civilians
7 in a war and if they're innocent they'll go to heaven, right?
8 Isn't that what you said?
9 A. Yes, he talk about that time and he said the Tartar is the
10 Muslim people hit the Tartar or around the Tartar, under the
11 war you can if you kill them, you not wrong.
12 Q. Now, isn't it a fact that what Mr. Ibn Tamiyeh said that
13 under certain extreme circumstances that innocent women,
14 children, or older people may be killed in a war, is that
15 right?
16 A. Yes, because he say --
17 Q. Just yes, is the answer?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And isn't the circumstances that he said that it's okay
20 was when the Tartars were using innocent Muslim women,
21 children and older people as shields as they attacked Muslim
22 villages, and that the Muslims could not defend themselves
23 because they were not allowed to shoot at the innocent women,
24 children, and older people who were being used as shields,
25 isn't that how the story goes?
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1 (Witness consults with interpreter)
2 A. No, not exactly what you say.
3 Q. Isn't it a fact that he said that Muslims can protect
4 their homes, their lands and their family and they can shoot
5 at the attacking Tartars trying to avoid killing the innocent
6 but if they don't and the innocents die then it is not a sin,
7 it is permissible? Isn't that what he said --
8 A. No, what I remember, if you don't mind I tell you what I
9 remember, what he say.
10 Q. Sure, go right ahead, Mr. Al Fadl, tell us what you
11 remember now what he said.
12 A. What I remember he say when is the Muslim people go to the
13 Tartar, when the Tartar come to the Muslim land, the Muslim
14 they should leave the area to go help the other Muslim against
15 Tartar, but if the Muslim around them are the fighting Muslim
16 they came and they kill the innocent this is their problem why
17 they came around the Tartar.
18 Q. Now, also you said that you could kill any Muslim who was
19 doing business with the Tartars?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Isn't it a fact what Abu Hajer told you about what Tamiyeh
22 said was that the Tartars were at war with the Muslims?
23 Can you translate, please?
24 (Through the interpreter)
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. That anyone doing business with the Tartars was helping
2 the Tartars conquer the Muslim lands and kill the Muslim
3 people?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that should you find anyone, any Muslim who is helping
6 the Tartars kill and attack Muslims, that you are to bring
7 them to the court at that time and if they are found guilty
8 they are to be executed?
9 Isn't that what he explained?
10 A. He talk during war like the people fight and the Muslim
11 against the Tartar and you kill him because his problem why he
12 help the Tartar and why he around the Tartar.
13 Q. Because he was helping the enemy?
14 A. Yes. Help them, and with them.
15 Q. That's just like nowadays like what would be treason,
16 isn't that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And in many countries treason is punishable now by death,
19 isn't that right?
20 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection. 401.
21 THE COURT: Sustained.
22 A. Yes.
23 THE COURT: No. It's stricken.
24 Q. Now, weren't there political discussions -- withdrawn.
25 Weren't there discussions among al Qaeda members
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1 about American troops fighting the Iraqis in Saudi Arabia?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And isn't it, wasn't the discussion about the bad things
4 that Saddam Hussain was doing to good Muslims in the Arabian
5 peninsula?
6 (Witness consults with interpreter)
7 A. I really don't remember.
8 Q. Wasn't there people who said it wasn't a bad thing for the
9 Americans to help defeat Saddam Hussein in Kuwait?
10 (Witness consults with interpreter)
11 A. In our group is your question?
12 Q. Wasn't there a number of people in the discussions that
13 you had amongst al Qaeda members that believed it was not a
14 bad thing for the Americans to fight the Iraqis and get them
15 out of Kuwait?
16 A. Well, at that time, yeah, different people got different
17 things.
18 Q. And isn't it that there was a dispute among all Muslims,
19 not just al Qaeda, but all Muslims about America's role in
20 Saudi Arabia and Kuwait? Isn't that right?
21 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection. Time frame.
22 THE COURT: Yes, time and place.
23 Q. During the Gulf War.
24 (Through the interpreter)
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And after the war was over isn't it the general Muslim
2 belief that the Americans should leave Saudi, Arabia, the land
3 of the holy places?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And the vast majority of Muslims believed it in 1991 and
6 believe it today, isn't that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The only dispute is how, what to be done to force, to make
9 the Americans leave the land of the holy places, isn't that
10 right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you, as you sit here right now, you believe that the
13 American troops should not be in Saudi Arabia, isn't that
14 correct?
15 A. You ask me about the religion or political?
16 Q. I'm asking you as a Muslim person who is sitting in this
17 courtroom, do you believe that the Americans should still be
18 in the land of the holy places?
19 A. It's hard to say yes or no.
20 Q. Doesn't many or most Muslims think that Americans who are
21 not Muslims should not be guarding the most sacred places in
22 Islam, isn't that right?
23 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
24 THE COURT: Sustained.
25 A. If you let me --
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1 THE COURT: Sustained. When I sustain an objection
2 it means you don't answer the question.
3 THE WITNESS: Okay.
4 Q. Now, there was mention on your direct examination of
5 something about Saudi Arabia, you remember that? Withdrawn.
6 Do you remember being asked about an Egyptian,
7 remember I think the Egyptian Islamic jihad raising the
8 question that the American embassy in Saudi Arabia should be
9 attacked?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. And you said that obviously wasn't done, right?
12 A. No.
13 Q. That's correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. But you weren't clear why. Do you remember testifying to
16 that?
17 A. I don't remember why he didn't do it.
18 Q. Isn't it a fact that the Saudis that were members of al
19 Qaeda who were present at the time that it was mentioned said
20 no, you don't do that against civilian targets?
21 A. I remember some people they say no, it's not good idea.
22 Q. They didn't just say, no, it's not a good idea. They said
23 that you do not go against civilian targets?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Isn't that correct?
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1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And it was dropped?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Right?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, this would be a good time
7 to break.
8 THE COURT: All right. We will break for lunch and
9 we'll resume at 2:15.
10 Counsel please remain in the courtroom.
11 (Continued on next page)
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 (Jury not present)
2 THE COURT: Mr. Schmidt, how much longer do you
3 anticipate your cross?
4 MR. SCHMIDT: I expect to go through the afternoon.
5 I am right now, I'm not sure whether I will finish this
6 afternoon or not.
7 THE COURT: Very well. We're adjourned to 2:15.
8 (Luncheon recess)
9 (Continued on next page)
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 AFTERNOON SESSION
2 2:15 p.m.
3 (Jury not present)
4 THE COURT: The juror whose mother passed away
5 writes: "I am sorry to announce the passing of my mother on
6 Monday, February 19, at 12:35 p.m. The arrangements have not
7 been final yet. Our family is to try to have a funeral on
8 Friday, based on availability of chapel. If not Friday, then
9 based on availability. I will inform the marshal."
10 MR. COHN: Is your Honor convinced that the juror can
11 pay attention for the rest of the week? It is distracting to
12 have your mother pass away, and all I am asking is have you
13 inquired as to whether or not --
14 THE COURT: I think his actions, the fact that he
15 does this demonstrates a desire to continue on the jury. Does
16 anybody else think that I should ask him whether it is a
17 problem?
18 MR. COHN: Your Honor, I am sure it demonstrates
19 fidelity. I am not sure it demonstrates reality once his
20 mother has just passed. All I am asking is that we ask if the
21 afternoon is well passed or if the juror will be elsewhere
22 because they are upset.
23 THE COURT: I will observe his demeanor carefully
24 during the afternoon and see if there is a problem.
25 (Jury present)
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1 JAMAL AHMED MOHAMED AL-FADL, resumed.
2 THE COURT: Mr. Schmidt, you may continue your
3 cross-examination.
4 CROSS-EXAMINATION continued
5 BY MR. SCHMIDT:
6 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, do you know what the word couple means?
7 A. Can you spell it.
8 Q. C-O-U-P-L-E.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you know that couple means two, pair? Two?
11 A. Yes.
12 THE COURT: It doesn't mean two pair. Couple means
13 two. Two pair are four.
14 MR. SCHMIDT: Thank you, your Honor. I think I'm
15 out.
16 (Laughter)
17 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, isn't it a fact that you told government
18 agents that you were at the Damazine camp only on a couple of
19 occasions?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And a couple means approximately two occasions.
22 A. Two or more.
23 Q. Does a couple mean two or more or a couple mean two?
24 THE COURT: The question isn't really what it means
25 in Webster. What did you understand it to mean?
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1 A. What I remember, I tell them I visit the Damazine camp
2 different times.
3 Q. What you told them is that you visited the Damazine camp
4 two times.
5 A. What I remember is more than two.
6 Q. Do you remember telling the government that it is two
7 times?
8 A. No, I don't.
9 Q. Do you remember telling the government that it was a
10 couple of times?
11 A. What I remember now, I visited the Damazine camp more than
12 twice.
13 Q. Are you denying or admitting that you told the government
14 that you went to the Damazine camp on a couple of occasions?
15 A. If I tell them two times that time, maybe I am wrong, but
16 what the truth, more than twice.
17 Q. This conversation that you had with the government was in
18 1996, more than four years ago.
19 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form.
20 MR. SCHMIDT: Withdrawn.
21 Q. The conversations that you had with the government, the
22 initial ones, were in 1996, wasn't it?
23 A. I don't remember if '96 or '97.
24 Q. Do you recall when you first went and talked to the
25 government?
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1 A. No, I talked to them about that but I don't know the year.
2 A lot of people forget about years.
3 Q. The first time that you talked to the government at the
4 embassy, what year was that, sir?
5 A. '96.
6 Q. At the time that you had 30 or 36 conversations with the
7 '96, wasn't it?
8 A. Yes, but different agents, and maybe they ask me different
9 questions, different style.
10 Q. I am going to show you a document marked 3501-2, and I am
11 going to ask you to look at the bottom, the last sentence, and
12 then the date at the top, and see if this refreshes your
13 recollection.
14 MR. SCHMIDT: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
15 THE COURT: As recollection as to what?
16 MR. SCHMIDT: As to the date he had a conversation.
17 THE COURT: The date of a particular conversation?
18 MR. SCHMIDT: The date of a conversation that he had
19 about being at the Damazine camp on a couple of occasions.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, which paragraph is that?
21 MR. SCHMIDT: The very last sentence.
22 A. Yes, I say couple, but I mean more than two.
23 Q. This was in 1996, is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. This was over four years ago, is that right?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Within a few years of the time that you worked for Mr. Bin
3 Laden, is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Right now it is the year 2001, is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Are you telling us that your memory is better now than
8 when you had the conversation with the agents back in 1996?
9 A. No, sometimes you forget something today but later on you
10 remember, just like human being.
11 Q. You had a discussion on direct examination concerning an
12 attempt to purchase uranium. Do you remember that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that you were present at a location they brought a
15 cylinder in a bag?
16 A. Location --
17 Q. I am asking, you were there at the time they brought a
18 cylinder in a bag, right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What kind of bag was the cylinder carried in?
21 A. This size.
22 Q. Was it a fabric bag? Was it a paper bag?
23 A. It's something like first time in my life I saw bag that
24 kind. So it look different than normal bag we use.
25 Q. What did it look like it was made out of?
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1 A. You open it like that and when it have two halves, the
2 size same, and in the back it's --
3 MR. SCHMIDT: Could you translate the question what
4 material was the bag made out of. (Interpreted)
5 A. (Interpreted) Strong leather Err.
6 THE COURT: Leather?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, your Honor.
8 Q. Did you see the bag carried into the room?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How many people carried the bag into the room?
11 A. I think one person and one with him.
12 Q. How many hands was he holding the bag in?
13 A. I don't remember really.
14 Q. Did he pick up the bag and put it on a table?
15 A. No, they put it in moquette.
16 THE INTERPRETER: On the wall-to-wall carpet. It's
17 called moquette. It's a French word.
18 Q. After they opened up the bag, did anybody do anything to
19 the cylinder?
20 A. Only Abu Rida al Suri.
21 Q. What did he do?
22 A. He got paper in his hand and something written in the
23 cylinder and he looked at the paper and he looked at the
24 cylinder. He look at the cylinder and look at the paper for a
25 few minutes.
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1 Q. Did he pick up the cylinder?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How many hands did he use to pick up the cylinder?
4 A. I remember he took it and he just put it like that. The
5 cylinder is like this size.
6 Q. Approximately two and a half feet in length? Would that
7 be about right?
8 A. It could be like this size. Could be.
9 Q. How big was the circumference around the pipe?
10 A. Maybe this.
11 Q. Do that again, please.
12 A. Maybe like this.
13 Q. Indicating maybe five, six inches?
14 THE COURT: Six inches in diameter?
15 MR. SCHMIDT: Diameter, excuse me. Thank you.
16 Q. After he looked at it, he put it back in the bag?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And the people who brought the bag closed it up and walked
19 out with it?
20 A. Yes. I walked first me and Bashir outside, and later
21 on -- after he close it, he still talk with the people and he
22 tell me wait outside. Me and the guy Bashir went out.
23 Q. Did anyone open up the cylinder? (Interpreted)
24 A. No.
25 Q. When the person was carrying the bag with the cylinder,
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1 was he walking normally?
2 A. Could you repeat the question.
3 Q. Would you translate that, please. The person who was
4 carrying the bag, was he walking normally? (Interpreted)
5 A. I don't remember that.
6 Q. Do you remember him walking funny?
7 A. I really don't remember.
8 Q. Did he look like he had any trouble with the bag?
9 A. I don't remember.
10 Q. There are a number of mosques in Khartoum that people who
11 worked for Bin Laden went to, is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you tell us the names of some of these mosques that
14 the people who worked for Bin Laden went to.
15 A. We have Square 9 mosque in Riyadh City. And we have Da'wa
16 Organization mosque in Riyadh also.
17 Q. Da'wa, the one that there is a supermarket behind?
18 A. It's not far from the Riyadh Street. And we got mosques
19 in our companies.
20 Q. Is there a mosque called Al Kalla?
21 A. Could you repeat it.
22 Q. Is there a mosque called Al Kalla A-L, K-A-L-L-A?
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. Is there a mosque called Mashilla, M-A-S-H-I-L-L-A?
25 A. I don't remember.
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1 Q. Did anybody who worked for Bin Laden ever speak in the
2 mosques in the Friday service?
3 A. Yes. We went, most of the time we went to 9 Square in
4 Riyadh City, and sometimes Da'wa Organization, sometimes we go
5 to African University mosque.
6 Q. When you say sometimes we, different people went to
7 different mosques different times?
8 A. You are right.
9 Q. And different people spoke at different mosques at
10 different times, right?
11 A. You are right, yes.
12 Q. And the mosques were open to the public for everybody to
13 listen.
14 A. Yes, but some mosques no, like Da'wa Organization is
15 different.
16 Q. You know Abu Hafs el Masry, don't you?
17 A. Which one?
18 Q. El Masry?
19 A. We have two Abu Hafs el Masry.
20 Q. The Abu also known as Abu Hafs el Masry Atef.
21 A. We have el Masry al Khabir, we have Abu Hafs el Masry al
22 Sashir.
23 Q. Abu Hafs the Egyptian, you know him?
24 A. I know both.
25 Q. You know the one who is Egyptian, is that correct?
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1 A. Yes, both Egyptian.
2 Q. You were shown a photograph of Abu Hafs the Egyptian?
3 A. Al Khabir, yes, el Masry, yes.
4 Q. There is one Abu Hafs who is closer to Bin Laden than the
5 other, is that correct?
6 A. Yes, Abu Hafs al Khabir, right.
7 Q. You were shown a picture of Abu Hafs al Khabir on October
8 17, 1997. Do you remember being shown a photograph of him?
9 A. I don't remember the year, but I remember they show me
10 picture of him.
11 Q. Do you remember not being able to identify him?
12 A. I don't remember, but I remember they show me picture of,
13 I tell them this Abu Hafs el Masry. But I don't know which
14 year.
15 Q. Didn't you have trouble identifying a picture of Abu Hafs?
16 A. It could. Sometimes they show me a lot of photographs and
17 I tell them I don't recognize this guy because he shave his
18 beard or because he dress different, or like that.
19 Q. So what you are saying is that you might not have been
20 able to identify someone that you knew very well because his
21 beard was shaven; is that what you are saying?
22 A. Not only beard, but sometimes a picture when he is very
23 younger, even before he come to the group.
24 Q. His appearance was different because it may not have been
25 the same as when you see him all the time in the Sudan, right?
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1 A. Not only the beard. It could be the photograph, or
2 whoever make the photograph of him, he don't make it good.
3 Q. Weren't you shown a photograph of a newspaper of Mohammed
4 Atef and you were unable to identify him?
5 A. Would you repeat that.
6 Q. Weren't you shown a photograph of Mohamed Atef, and you
7 were unable to identify that photograph as Mohamed Atef?
8 A. Usually when they --
9 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, I am asking you, were you shown a photograph
10 of Mohamed Atef and you were unable to identify him? Yes or
11 no.
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. Did you ever hear of the name of Mustafa Hamza?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you ever tell the government that you were not sure
16 whether Abu Hafs or Mohamed Atef and Mustafa Hamza was the
17 same person?
18 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form.
19 THE COURT: Restate your question.
20 Q. Did you ever tell the government that you were unsure that
21 Abu Hafs and Mustafa Hamza were the same person?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I am going to show you what is marked as 3501-7 on page 2.
24 I would ask you to read or have read to you by the interpreter
25 the first four sentences.
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1 MR. SCHMIDT: May I approach the witness?
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 (Interpreter complies)
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Isn't it a fact that in October 1997 you were shown a
6 photograph of Mohamed Atef, also known to you as Abu Hafs --
7 A. Masry.
8 Q. -- and you were unable to identify the photograph?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That is because he looked different in the photograph than
11 he looked to you when you saw him in the Sudan and Pakistan,
12 is that correct?
13 A. Yes. Maybe the picture is not clear or like that.
14 Q. In fact, lots of people's appearance are very different
15 when they have the Islamic beard and dress than when they
16 shave and wear western clothes, is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And sometimes it is very hard to know who that person is?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When they are photographed in different attire and
21 different facial hair.
22 A. Right.
23 Q. Do you know a person named Abu Mohamed al Iraqi?
24 A. I don't remember.
25 Q. You first arrived in Pakistan in 1988, is that correct?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. But you were aware of many things that were being done in
3 Pakistan since 1986, is that correct?
4 A. Could you repeat the question.
5 Q. You were aware of many things that were going on in
6 Pakistan since 1986 after you came to the United States, is
7 that right?
8 A. Can she help me?
9 Q. Sure.
10 (Interpreted)
11 A. Yes, when I was in Farouq mosque in Brooklyn.
12 Q. There were many Muslims who traveled to Pakistan and
13 Afghanistan not only to fight but to do charity work, isn't
14 that correct?
15 A. Yes, correct.
16 Q. They did relief work for the refugees, is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. They brought books and taught children?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You were in -- withdrawn.
21 Mr. Bin Laden was in Afghanistan until about 1991, is
22 that correct?
23 A. Yes, he traveled back and forth Saudi Arabia.
24 Q. During the whole time from 1988 when you first came to
25 Pakistan and Afghanistan until you finally left and Mr. Bin
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1 Laden left Pakistan and Afghanistan to come to the Sudan,
2 isn't it a fact that you never once heard Mr. Bin Laden say
3 anything bad about the United States?
4 A. In Afghanistan time?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. What I remember, we have book at that time when we are in
7 Afghanistan.
8 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, I asked you a question.
9 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor.
10 Q. That can be answered yes or no.
11 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor. He was
12 giving him an answer and he stopped him.
13 THE COURT: You may continue your answer.
14 A. When we are in Afghanistan, I remember the Egyptian guy,
15 his name Dr. Fadhl, and Saudi guy, they wrote book, and they
16 called the book "The Clear Evidence to Make the Saudi
17 Government UnMuslim Government," and at that time the people
18 start to study why the Saudi government is not Muslim, because
19 his relationship with Americans and Americans control the oil
20 and control the money in Saudi Arabia. So that start over
21 there, I think end of '89 and area of '950.
22 Q. Let me ask the question again. Perhaps we should have the
23 interpreter translate this question.
24 During the period of time that you were in
25 Afghanistan and Pakistan and Usama Bin Laden was there as
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1 well, isn't it a fact that you never heard Bin Laden speak
2 against the Americans or American interests?
3 A. I really don't remember.
4 Q. Didn't you tell the government on November 4 or 5 of 1996
5 that you never heard Bin Laden speak of the Americans or
6 attacking Americans or American interests when you were in
7 Afghanistan?
8 A. Yes, but not the group. Himself -- himself, no.
9 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl --
10 THE COURT: Let him answer.
11 Q. I said Mr. Bin Laden, I did not say any other people. Do
12 you understand my question?
13 A. But when you were --
14 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Your question is Bin
15 Laden personally?
16 MR. SCHMIDT: I said Mr. Bin Laden. I don't know
17 what else that means.
18 A. But sometimes you use it as a group.
19 Q. I have never used it as a group.
20 THE COURT: Mr. Schmidt.
21 Q. Isn't it a fact --
22 THE COURT: Just one moment, please. The question is
23 whether you heard Mr. Bin Laden personally speak anything bad
24 about the United States during this period between 1988 in the
25 time he left to go to the Sudan, in that period of time.
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1 THE WITNESS: Personally, no.
2 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, you told us that you took a bayat.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You took that while you were in Afghanistan, is that
5 correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. It was a document, wasn't it?
8 A. Not only documents.
9 Q. Was there a document that you had to read?
10 A. Documents and talking.
11 Q. One of the things that you read that was a condition of
12 being in al Qaeda back in 1989 was that you could belong to no
13 other Islamic Group other than al Qaeda, isn't that right?
14 A. It's yes, first time they say, yes, you have to be in al
15 Qaeda group only.
16 Q. Thank you. You also were told and read that there was
17 that you must keep your work and your missions confidential.
18 (Interpreted)
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You were told and you read that you were not to talk about
21 your work for al Qaeda with anybody other than your immediate
22 superior, isn't that right?
23 A. No, it is not like what you said.
24 Q. Weren't you told that if you needed to talk to anyone
25 other than your immediate superior for the purpose of what you
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1 were doing you needed to get the permission of your immediate
2 superior?
3 A. If you want me explain I explain, because it is hard to
4 say yes or no.
5 Q. Then please explain.
6 A. If we are 10 guys in a group, we went somewhere, we know
7 what going on about, everybody know his rule and emir tell
8 everybody what he has to do. So when we went for prayer after
9 prayer, with the same 10 guys, we talk about what going on.
10 Q. So if all 10 of you had the same mission, the same role,
11 you were able to talk to them, right?
12 A. This is the for attack or mission, for military purpose.
13 But if someone is going to be made fatwah or they want to send
14 troops somewhere, one speaks for all of the members.
15 Q. That is when there is a discussion about general goals,
16 right?
17 A. Yes, about who is going, who is not going.
18 Q. General goals there was a discussion.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Specific, there were no discussions other than the people
21 on each particular mission, is that correct?
22 A. Not exactly what you say.
23 Q. Weren't you told that you were to keep your work
24 confidential and not discuss it with people, not to talk about
25 it, not to gossip about it? Isn't that right?
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1 A. When they say that, they talk about the people not in the
2 group, not the member, the people in Qaeda member.
3 Q. Let's talk about some things that you did for al Qaeda.
4 You delivered some documents in Egypt, is that correct?
5 A. Yes, from Pakistan.
6 Q. Were you told what was in the documents?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Were they sealed?
9 A. What means sealed? (Interpreted)
10 Yes.
11 Q. You were given documents, told to give them to a person,
12 and that was it, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. No one told you about what was in the documents, is that
15 correct?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You didn't have a discussion with the people when you were
18 in Egypt about what was in the documents, is that correct?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And when you came back you didn't discuss it with anybody,
21 what was in the documents, is that correct?
22 A. Well, the people near me in Qaeda tell me I went to Egypt,
23 I saw Abu Hafs el Masry and I saw Bakhri, and I traveled from
24 Karachi to Egypt. This what I know about my trip, I tell
25 them.
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1 Q. But you didn't know what the purpose was other than an
2 envelope, is that right? You were not --
3 A. What I know?
4 Q. You were not told, is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You went to Hungary.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you were told to meet a particular person, is that
9 correct?
10 A. Yes, in Budapest.
11 Q. You weren't told why you were going there, were you?
12 A. They said he want to talk to you over there.
13 Q. You weren't told why you were going there before you left,
14 is that correct?
15 A. Yes, because I don't have visa, they want to talk to me,
16 they say maybe you have problem in airport. Because each trip
17 is different. Some trips they tell you everything seems fine.
18 But if some problems they think, they try don't to tell you,
19 if you catch by police or anything, you don't have to say
20 anything.
21 Q. They didn't tell you when you went to Hungary, is that
22 correct?
23 A. Because I didn't have visa.
24 Q. Because you didn't have visa?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Then you learned not being told anything in Hungary but
2 being told to go to Zagreb.
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. And you weren't told when you were going to Zagreb why you
5 were going to Zagreb, is that correct?
6 A. No, Bin Laden by himself, and I remember Abu Faqil el
7 Makkee al Hajj, in the same office told me when you go to
8 Zagreb after Budapest we need to study the business investment
9 over there, because the Croatian government sell a lot of
10 companies.
11 Q. So you knew the portion to go to Zagreb was to get
12 business and commercial information.
13 A. And also to meet a person name Mohamed Sarudani, and he
14 tell me what going on inside Bosnia.
15 Q. And that information, the commercial information from
16 Croatia and information about what's going on in Bosnia was
17 given to you and you brought it back.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You went to Nairobi in 1991, didn't you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And not only did you go, you went with your wife, isn't
22 that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You weren't told about why you were going, were you?
25 A. No. What I remember what he told me, he told me this is
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1 envelope, you going to meet, is Egyptian guy, I forget his
2 name right now, he you meet him, give him the envelope, and we
3 need you to work over there and take your wife with you. When
4 we went over there, the Egyptian guy he tell me no, we talk
5 with Banshir about that, and you going to go to Pakistan.
6 After that, we went to Pakistan.
7 Q. Never finding out what the purpose was of going to Kenya,
8 is that correct? It was kept confidential from you, isn't
9 that right?
10 A. Sometimes they change their mind after they tell you go
11 somewhere for working over there, and sometimes, because the
12 envelope I have, the documents I give to the Egyptian guy.
13 Q. Were you ever told the reason that you were going to
14 Kenya?
15 A. Not that time, but I remember year or something after, I
16 know Banshiri, he tried to work in horn of Africa, in Djibouti
17 and Kenya and Yemen and that region.
18 Q. Anything else?
19 A. No.
20 Q. In your bayat, you were also told to preserve the money of
21 Al Qaeda, is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Part of that would be taking an oath not to steal from Al
24 Qaeda.
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And you swore a bayat not to steal from Al Qaeda.
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. There is no dispute among scholars, Islamic scholars,
4 about the wrongfulness of stealing for yourself when you are
5 not starving, isn't that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You also were told in your bayat that your superiors must
8 follow Islamic law.
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. That unless they follow Islamic law you don't have to do
11 what they ask, is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you were told that you should obey your leaders as
14 much as possible.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that meant that if you believed that they were doing
17 or saying or asking you to do something that was not
18 Islamically correct, you did not have to obey them. Isn't
19 that right?
20 A. Could you repeat.
21 Q. That meant that if you believed your superior told you to
22 do something that was not Islamically correct, you did not
23 have to listen to him, isn't that right?
24 A. We talk about it. If he tell me something is not right,
25 we talk. Like first time was --
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1 Q. If one of your leaders told you to steal from an orphanage
2 because they didn't like that orphanage, would you do it?
3 A. What mean orphanage? (Interpreted)
4 No, I don't believe.
5 Q. Because it would be unIslamic, wouldn't it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If one of your leaders told you that, see that boy on the
8 street? I don't like him, he looks different, go and kill
9 him. Would you go and kill him?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Because it would be unIslamic, right?
12 A. No, but if he is in building with other military people it
13 would make a difference. But nobody tell you go and kill that
14 baby, that never going to happen. But if the baby inside
15 building with military and other staff, that difference.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Al-Fadl. Am I correct that if you are told
17 that you should do something that you personally did not
18 believe was Islamic, that you had not only the right but the
19 responsibility not to participate? Isn't that correct?
20 A. Well, in a group we have something fatwah. There is no
21 one tell you go and do that. They make fatwah, they make it
22 clear, they tell you what the purpose of fatwah, what the
23 benefit for what we doing. Everything they explain everything
24 for you, why they make fatwah, what's the benefit from that
25 attack or why they doing that. There is no one come and tell
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1 you just go do that. So everything is fatwah, with shura
2 council and meeting and lecture.
3 Q. The purpose of these meetings and lectures were to
4 convince you that whatever the order was was Islamically
5 correct, isn't that right?
6 A. It is not only Islamic, because they follow specific
7 scholar. Some scholars, they don't believe what we doing. So
8 when you say Islamic scholars, that mean all the scholars
9 agree. Some scholars don't agree what we doing.
10 Q. If the scholars did not agree and you were not convinced
11 that it was Islamically correct, you would not do it, is that
12 correct?
13 A. If they say fatwah, yes, I do it.
14 Q. Even if the Islamic scholars disagreed?
15 A. We talk about the scholars in a group.
16 THE COURT: If the scholars in al Qaeda agree, then
17 what happens?
18 THE WITNESS: That mean it's fatwah. If they ask me
19 to do it, yes.
20 Q. Aren't there other scholars that the people in al Qaeda
21 always discussed?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When you say scholars, in al Qaeda you had, I guess you
24 called Abu Hajer, he was not even a member of al Qaeda, was
25 he?
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1 A. Could you repeat the question.
2 Q. Was one of the scholars you are talking about Abu Hajer?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. He was not even a member, to your knowledge, of al Qaeda,
5 is that correct?
6 A. What I believe, he is one of our people in al Qaeda.
7 Q. Didn't you say that you did not know and other people said
8 that he was not?
9 A. Yes. I never see him --
10 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor. May he
11 finish the answer?
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 A. I never see him make bayat. He never tell me I am member
14 of al Qaeda. But the time between when we start al Qaeda
15 until I left al Qaeda, he is arguing and talking about the
16 stuff in guesthouse, talking about stuff near Bin Laden, and
17 make fatwah and make a speech. All that for me, if he is not
18 al Qaeda member, he can't do that.
19 Q. Didn't Abu Rida tell you that he was not a member of al
20 Qaeda?
21 A. Yes, some people say that. Some people, they say he is
22 not al Qaeda member, but he help al Qaeda agenda.
23 Q. Wasn't Mr. Bin Laden in contact with religious scholars in
24 Saudi Arabia?
25 A. Yes, he got two scholars.
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1 Q. Didn't he talk about the scholars who were imprisoned in
2 Saudi Arabia?
3 A. Yes, Salman al Auda and Safar al Hawali.
4 MR. SCHMIDT: We will try to get the spelling later
5 for you.
6 Q. Didn't he tell you about what their beliefs were?
7 A. Could you repeat the question.
8 Q. Didn't he tell you what their beliefs were?
9 A. Who is tell me?
10 Q. Mr. Bin Laden. The scholars -- withdrawn.
11 Weren't you aware of those scholars' belief that
12 force should not be used in the land of the holy places?
13 A. Well, if you let me just answer. Safar al Hawali, he
14 wrote a book about what he know, and we have discussion. He
15 say war, yes, but innocent people is not right. But make a
16 war is yes. And the book is named Kashfel Kuma.
17 Q. So innocent people were not to be harmed, isn't that
18 right?
19 A. This what Safar al Hawali believe, yes.
20 Q. Just like the Saudis said back in 1993 when someone raised
21 the idea of the Saudi embassy being bombed, they said no, no
22 innocents.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Isn't that the Saudi belief?
25 A. Not --
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1 Q. Isn't that the Saudi belief, Mr. Al-Fadl?
2 A. Let me answer. Some of our membership, they don't believe
3 in trying to kill innocent, some of the members, and they left
4 the group. But the people that support the fatwah, they stay
5 in group and that --
6 THE COURT: Let him finish.
7 MR. SCHMIDT: I apologize.
8 A. And I remember that in '93.
9 Q. 9 --
10 A. '93 or '94.
11 Q. So now you are telling us for the first time that the
12 people who didn't believe in killing innocents all left in
13 1993?
14 A. This is what I remember.
15 Q. Is that what you are telling us now?
16 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form.
17 A. That what I remember.
18 Q. Remember now?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You never mentioned it to anybody before, did you?
21 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form.
22 A. You ask me questions and sometimes question refresh my
23 mind and I try to give you right answer.
24 Q. Isn't it a fact that the group that talked about the
25 bombing of the Saudi embassy is the Islamic Jihad of Egypt?
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1 Wasn't that right?
2 A. It's not only that. My first answer, when the people talk
3 about the attack inside Egypt, some people, they left the
4 group, they say that's not good thing to do.
5 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, you told us before that the person who raised
6 the question of bombing an American Embassy in Saudi Arabia
7 was an Egyptian jihad member?
8 A. Yes, Abu el Masry.
9 Q. When Sheikh Rahman was arrested in the United States -- do
10 you remember that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The Egyptian jihad people wanted to do something in
13 revenge, isn't that right?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And nothing was done, isn't that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. No one would agree to kill innocents in response to that,
18 isn't that correct, Mr. Al-Fadl?
19 A. Let me answer.
20 Q. I asked you a question. If you can't answer it, don't
21 answer it.
22 THE COURT: He asked you a question is that correct.
23 Now you can respond to that request.
24 A. I remember some people, they left the group, they say we
25 don't want to do things immediately, we don't like that, and
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1 Bin Laden say we do, but this is going to take time.
2 Q. You never said that to the government. What you said to
3 the government, isn't that correct, that nothing was done and
4 the Egyptian jihad members left because of it; isn't that what
5 you said?
6 A. No, not all of the jihad group. What I tell them, some of
7 people, but not all the group.
8 Q. Thirteen to 20 members who were in Sudan at that time
9 left, is that right?
10 A. Could you repeat.
11 Q. Thirteen to 20 Egyptian Islamic jihad members left the
12 Sudan at that time.
13 A. Yes, it could be that, yes.
14 Q. You were very much involved with the NIF when you came
15 back to the Sudan, isn't that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You worked for the NIF, didn't you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In fact, you were under orders from the NIF to deliver
20 weapons to the NIF militia in its civil war in the south of
21 Sudan, isn't that right?
22 A. At that time in southwest Sudan, yes.
23 Q. At that time, that was under the authority of the NIF, the
24 government of Sudan.
25 A. Yes, under militia headquarters.
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1 Q. And you disobeyed the orders and they put you in jail,
2 isn't that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And eventually you came out and you went to work in Usama
5 Bin Laden's businesses, isn't that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then after a period of time you went back to work for
8 the NIF.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The NIF were the people who were asking you about this
11 assassination plot against al Mahdi, isn't that correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. In fact, you have always been an employee of the NIF since
14 you returned to the Sudan, haven't you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you always reported to the NIF about what Bin Laden
17 was doing since Bin Laden came to the Sudan, isn't that right?
18 A. I do both. I take from Bin Laden to NIF, from NIF to Bin
19 Laden.
20 Q. So you played both sides, don't you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. To your own advantage?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Isn't that right?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And you got paid by the NIF, didn't you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. They rewarded you.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How much did they pay you?
6 A. I don't remember now.
7 Q. You didn't tell Bin Laden that you were getting paid by
8 the NIF for spying on him, did you?
9 A. No, but he know I work for the delegation in Sudan.
10 Q. But he didn't know that you spy on him.
11 A. They say the information you bring from Bin Laden group,
12 we have great relationship with him, we try to make everything
13 great for him. We just want to make sure nobody going to make
14 something wrong against him or nobody want to do something
15 inside the group.
16 Q. The NIF used you to keep a short leash on Mr. Bin Laden,
17 is that right?
18 A. Yes, anything happen in our group, I tell them and I make
19 interview for new people coming into Al Qaeda group in Sudan.
20 Q. The NIF, the government of the Sudan, right, was able to
21 obtain weapons on its own from eastern European countries,
22 weren't they, and China?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You told us that you embezzled $110,000 from Mr. Bin
25 Laden, is that correct?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In fact, back in 1991, not only did you go to jail for
3 disobeying an order, you went to jail for passing a bad check.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In fact, back in 1986 you embezzled $600 from your father
6 so you could go to the United States.
7 A. Could you repeat your question.
8 Q. Back in 1986 when your father was out of the country and
9 your brother was running one of the oil presses, he gave you a
10 check that was in Sudanese pounds, it was approximately $600,
11 that you used to buy your airplane ticket to the United
12 States; isn't that right?
13 A. No. My older brother, he runs a business for my dad, and
14 he make a letter to the embassy for my dad, he give me the
15 money because he say my dad he want to do that, and this what
16 happened. I didn't take any money without my dad order.
17 That's never happened.
18 Q. You told us that you took $110,000 from Bin Laden, is that
19 correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What company were you working for at that time?
22 A. Laden International company, Taba Investment, and Qudurat
23 Transportation.
24 Q. You told us here that what you used that money for was to
25 buy some residential -- to buy some plots of land for your
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1 brother and your sister and you, is that right?
2 A. No, my sister, and I buy the other land under my name.
3 Q. Didn't you use some of the money to build a factory for
4 your brother?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Didn't you in fact build a factory for your brother Adel
7 in Umduhrman --
8 A. No.
9 Q. -- called Abu Al-Muwaffaq Oil Press?
10 A. No. My dad help him, because my dad he got three
11 companies and he help him to make that factory, not me.
12 Q. Didn't you tell a government agent on October 21, 1996,
13 that you embezzled large sums of money from Bin Laden in 1994
14 and used to buy for yourself many residential lots in
15 Umduhrman and al Jerafees, and also used the money to build a
16 factory for your Adel in Umduhrman known as the Abu
17 Al-Muwaffaq Oil Press?
18 A. No.
19 Q. I am going to show you what has been marked as 3501-45,
20 page 147, and I ask the interpreter to read the last paragraph
21 to him. May I approach the witness, your Honor?
22 THE COURT: Yes. How much longer?
23 MR. SCHMIDT: Half hour, 45 minutes.
24 (Interpreter complies)
25 A. No, that's never happen. I tell them I got the money and
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1 I buy residential but not factory for my brother.
2 Q. So is it your testimony now that you never told an agent
3 of the United States government that you used some of the
4 money you stole to help your brother build that oil press
5 factory?
6 A. No, I never say that. Maybe they understand me wrong.
7 Q. Some of the ways that you stole this money was that you
8 diverted commodities to friends of yours to sell, isn't that
9 right?
10 A. Would she help me. (Interpreted)
11 Yes, I sell the stuff for them and they give me
12 commission.
13 Q. You didn't sell the stuff for them, you diverted some of
14 the oil that was coming in through Mr. Bin Laden's connections
15 to a friend of yours who then sold it and split the profits
16 with you, isn't that right?
17 A. What I remember, I sold the stuff for them and they give
18 me commission. They sell it and they give me the money back
19 and I got the commission.
20 Q. You never collected money for Mr. Bin Laden of the
21 commodities that you gave your friends, isn't that right?
22 A. I don't understand what you say. (Interpreted)
23 What we do, we sell the stuff, and when I sell the
24 stuff to them they give me commission, and I bring the money
25 back to the company, and I take the commission.
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1 Q. What commodities did you do this with? (Interpreted)
2 A. Sugar and oil and soap.
3 Q. One of your friends ended up getting sued by Mr. Bin
4 Laden's lawyers because of one of your sugar deals, isn't that
5 right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. His name is Sadeek Ali Mohamed, isn't that right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. He is one of the people that you diverted sugar to, he
10 sold it and didn't pay all the money he owed Mr. Bin Laden,
11 isn't that right?
12 A. No. I take the commission from Faizel and other guy but
13 not from al Sadeek.
14 Q. You had another arrangement with --
15 A. With Faizel but not with Sadeek.
16 Q. How much were you supposed to get from Mr. Sadeek?
17 A. I don't take any money from al Sadeek.
18 Q. You made an arrangement where you gave him $600,000 of
19 sugar that he never paid back, did he?
20 A. He paid some but not all of it.
21 Q. And he went to jail because of that.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And they sold all of his property and businesses to pay
24 back.
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. You complained that you were able to pay back only so much
2 money to Mr. Bin Laden, isn't that right?
3 A. I pay back I think between 25 to $30,000.
4 Q. You still have assets worth money in the Sudan, don't you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You have the property in your name, isn't that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you have your interest with your brother in the oil
9 press company, don't you?
10 A. No. That's -- that's the company. That's under Islamic
11 National front. The company which my brother, it's under
12 Islamic National Front.
13 Q. What assets do you have besides the property?
14 A. I have Azrami company. It's under my name but it's
15 umbrella for Islamic National Front.
16 Q. When you claimed you had nothing left to give Mr. Bin
17 Laden back, you had the properties that you used his money to
18 buy.
19 A. Yes.
20 (Continued on next page)
21
22
23
24
25
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1 Q. Did you sell the properties to give the money back to
2 Mr. Bin Laden?
3 A. I sell one between 25 to 30 thousand dollars back.
4 Q. Did you sell the other properties?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Isn't it a fact that the American government is giving you
7 money because you've given up your assets in the Sudan, you
8 can't get your assets in the Sudan?
9 A. Could you repeat the question?
10 Q. Isn't it part of your agreement to get the loan from the
11 American government because you've given up your getting your
12 assets in the Sudan?
13 A. No, they say they going to get me twenty thousand to get
14 to start my life, is what they say.
15 Q. But isn't it that you have substantial -- doesn't it say
16 that you have substantial assets in the Sudan that you cannot
17 get to?
18 A. But how I'm here now, how I going to say this?
19 Q. Now, when, so you still had assets when you told Mr. Bin
20 Laden to his face that you had no more money to give him, is
21 that right?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. You lied to him to his face because you had --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- something that you had to give him, is that correct?
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, in fact you lied to Mr. Bin Laden or the other people
3 that you took this oath to their faces at least three times,
4 right?
5 A. Yes. You ask me why I did that and I tell him he took
6 money, Egyptian jihad people they got more right, they got
7 more salary, some new people they got more salaries than the
8 people that start the group, and I explained that to him.
9 Q. You Didn't tell Mr. Bin Laden that you were making money
10 from the NIF as well, did you?
11 A. No, he know, he know I work for the office.
12 Q. He knew that you were getting money not only from Tabba,
13 not only from al Qaeda, but also from the NIF for spying on
14 him? He knew?
15 A. He knew I work for the office.
16 Q. The only reason that you told Al Tayyib that you did steal
17 the money is that they already had the proof against you,
18 right?
19 A. He asked me first time and I say no, I didn't take any
20 money.
21 Q. Right. They asked you again and you said no, I didn't
22 take any money. And then the third time they had the proof
23 and you knew that you were in the corner and you said, oh, yes
24 I did take it?
25 A. He asked me.
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1 Q. Isn't that what happened?
2 A. What he tell me, first of all, I tell him I got
3 commission, I say, yes, what I sell the sugar and oil sell, I
4 got commission.
5 Q. Isn't that the same thing that you did when you talked to
6 the Americans about your stealing?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You didn't tell the Americans that you were a thief, did
9 you?
10 A. Yeah, it take me two days until I tell them.
11 Q. It took you two months and thirty times to tell them,
12 isn't that right?
13 A. No, when they finish the three weeks about all the
14 question about group, after that they tell me now we finished
15 everything, but we need to know something about you, I told
16 them I don't have anything yet and they say no --
17 Q. I apologize?
18 A. They say no, we know something about you. We understand
19 you did ask, but you have to tell this because we know it.
20 And the second day I tell them, yes, I took money from Bin
21 Laden.
22 Q. You started talking to the Americans on September 7, 1996,
23 is that right?
24 A. I don't remember the date.
25 Q. About that time, right?
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1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. And you told the Americans on October 21st about the 27th
3 time that you met with them, that you were a thief, right?
4 A. I don't understand what you say.
5 Q. Is that right? You told them about seven weeks, six weeks
6 later after seeing them about twenty-seven times that you were
7 a thief, isn't that right?
8 A. Well, first time when I saw them we talk about the group,
9 they never ask me about did I take money. They ask me
10 everything, but the last two days they start ask me, we know
11 now everything about the group. We want to know something
12 about you, and you have to tell us that. I say I don't have
13 anything. They say, no, we know something about you. If you
14 tell us, we going to trust you. And the second day I tell
15 them, yes, I took money from Bin Laden.
16 THE COURT: We'll take our midafternoon recess.
17 (Recess)
18 (Continued on next page)
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 (In open court; jury not present)
2 THE COURT: All right. Please be seated. I asked
3 the juror whose mother passed away how he was doing, how he
4 was and he said, I'm all right. I'm hanging in there.
5 Let's try and complete this witness today. I
6 understand Mr. Schmidt has about 15 more minutes. The
7 government tells me it has about 15 minutes of redirect.
8 Let's make every effort to complete this witness today, and
9 then to take up any matters relating to tomorrow's agenda.
10 Will you tell them to bring the jury in.
11 (Continued on next page)
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 (Jury present; witness resumed)
2 THE COURT: Mr. Schmidt, you may resume.
3 BY MR. SCHMIDT:
4 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, the only reason you told the Americans about
5 being a thief that is because you thought they already knew
6 about it, isn't that correct?
7 A. Yeah, they tell me that they say we know about that.
8 Q. And if they didn't say that, you would have never told
9 them, isn't that right?
10 A. If they don't ask me, yeah.
11 Q. That's correct.
12 Now, when did you start working at al Sadani?
13 A. Maybe in '94, year '94.
14 Q. Near the end of '94?
15 A. I didn't remember which month, but I think during '94.
16 Q. Now, you also got into financial trouble with al Sadani,
17 didn't you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. There was money missing from al Sadani, isn't that right?
20 A. When the money missing because we used the money to
21 support some of the Islamic National Front, we spend the money
22 for the people work, bring the militia, like that, and the
23 government, the Islamic National Front issued a loan from the
24 bank to support the money we spent. Until 1995 you don't give
25 me the money and that's why I stopped working them, and I went
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1 Kalif Sadur.
2 Q. You think the NIF accused you of stealing money, isn't
3 that right?
4 A. It's not like that, but because somebody tell them I give
5 Egyptian guy he wrote a book against Tayyib and he tell them
6 Ab Bakkar he did that, he give Abu Bakar had El Masry's money
7 to wrote book against Tayyib.
8 Q. So then the NIF was angry at you, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And they accused you of stealing money from al Sadani,
11 they accused you?
12 A. Yes, they don't pay the money back and they don't give me
13 the loan from Khartoum bank.
14 Q. And that's right, they said that you had the money you had
15 to pay it back, right?
16 A. Yes, because the loan, is a reason in my name, my older
17 brother name, so all the papers it's our name. If any
18 problem, we got the problem.
19 Q. And you said that no, it wasn't, we didn't take the money,
20 these other two people from NIF took the money, right?
21 A. It's not like that, because they should, when I spend the
22 money for the Islamic National Front benefit they should give
23 me a loan from Khartoum bank, and every time I went to them I
24 went Dr. Abaka Kabir, Dr. Muslak Sabir, and I told them we
25 spent a lot of money and we don't have a lot of money and we
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Al Fadl - cross
1 have to bring that money back to the bank, but later on I hear
2 somebody tell that office I here to make a tape, wrote book
3 against Tayyib.
4 Q. They said you took the money and you said no, it was
5 Dr. Abd al-Mun'Imalkhabir, and Mohammed Hashim Hasan, and
6 Dr. Abdallah Mohammed Yusuf. You said they took the money,
7 not me, right?
8 A. No, they didn't take it for themselves. Money spending
9 for the Islamic National Front work.
10 Q. And you said that you forgot to get a receipt from them,
11 that's why you couldn't show that they took the money?
12 A. It's clear you know we spend the money for the work and I
13 went to Bashihar, he runs the group at that time and I went to
14 Ahmed Muli Aman. I tell them the money we spend it for the
15 office. I buy car for Abdel Munim Gabir for the war, we buy
16 house furniture, and a lot of people try to bring the work for
17 Musada Sinna group, from Narin group, from Muslim brother, so
18 I tell them this money I spent it for the work.
19 Q. Well, then what about the three people, didn't they come
20 and say, yes, he gave, we got the money, and it was for Sudan?
21 A. Well, every time I went over there. He tell me, we going
22 to give the loan from Khartoum bank and I got letter from
23 Ahmed Alima, Dr. Isman the manager of Khartoum bank and in the
24 letter he tell me, he do great job and if he give him a loan.
25 That's great.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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Al Fadl - cross
1 Q. So you did a great job but nobody believed you?
2 A. No, they believe me, but somebody tell them I give Abu al
3 Masry money for the book against Tayyib. And at that time he
4 got his own group, is he got his own group it's fight between
5 NIF by themselves.
6 Q. Now, besides this problem with the money from al Sadani
7 there was also the loan money that you owed, isn't that right?
8 A. Yes. That's why we want to cover that loan because the
9 money for the NIF it's come from the bank.
10 Q. In other words, based on what you say everybody else has
11 caused you problems that may put in jail for owing money to
12 the bank, is that what you're saying?
13 A. Yeah, they believe I give Abu Kar El Masry, money because
14 he make tape and they think or somebody I think tell them I
15 give the money to Abu Kar.
16 Q. And so none of this was your fault. It was everybody
17 else's fault, right?
18 A. Anyway, you know that Islamic National Front is a lot of
19 companies they owned by people, but they do the government
20 job. It's like umbrella companies, and is a reason that time
21 is the same, we, myself I own the company, but I run for
22 Islamic National Front business.
23 Q. Now, who, which companies were being audited to determine
24 how much you took out, was that the Bin Laden companies or is
25 that the NIF companies?
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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Al Fadl - cross
1 A. Could you repeat your question?
2 Q. Which companies were being audited to determine how much
3 you stole? Was that the Bin Laden companies or the NIF
4 companies?
5 A. No, we talk now about NIF company.
6 Q. They had accountants audit your books, right?
7 A. I don't understand what you say.
8 Q. They had accountants examine your records from the
9 company, didn't they?
10 (Witness consults interpreter)
11 A. For Sarine, Sarine company?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. No, I run the business, I manage at that time for Sarine.
14 I do the bank. I do everything, me and I hire people with me.
15 Q. Which are the companies that audited the books were
16 examined? Was that the Bin Laden companies?
17 A. I don't understand what you say.
18 (Witness consults with interpreter)
19 A. I don't know what you mean. We have a lot of companies in
20 Bin Laden.
21 Q. Somebody sent a representative from the lawyer's office to
22 examine the records to determine whether you stole money from
23 the companies?
24 A. I think you talk about $110,000.
25 Q. So they had, so Bin Laden sent his attorney's office to
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1 audit the books at Laden International, is that right?
2 A. I don't remember that what I know Faraki asked me the same
3 time and he say somebody come and tell him you stole the money
4 and I tell him, yes, I got commission.
5 Q. Didn't they audit the books at the company that you were
6 working for on two separate occasions?
7 A. I don't remember any lawyer or any attorney talk to me
8 about that.
9 Q. Didn't you tell the government on October 21, 1996 that
10 the legal office headed by Hasim abu Baka Al Jali did an
11 investigation jointly by Bin Laden and the NIF and they
12 concluded that you stole money?
13 A. What I remember Ajani he asked me about because one of the
14 companies he bought Sudan the salt farm he want me to bring
15 the license, because it's my name.
16 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, I'm asking you what you said to the
17 government back in 1996. Didn't you tell them that there was
18 a joint audit of the books of the company that you ran in
19 1995?
20 A. I don't remember that.
21 Q. Did you tell them that after that --
22 A. I don't remember.
23 Q. -- there was a further audit for a month long?
24 A. I don't remember, but what I remember when Ajani he talk
25 to me.
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Al Fadl - cross
1 Q. You don't remember, Mr. Al Fadl --
2 THE COURT: Let him finish.
3 MR. SCHMIDT: I thought he was finished, Judge.
4 A. What I remember Ajani talk to me about the salt farm in
5 Sudan, it's under my name and he ask we need to switch the
6 name to other person.
7 Q. Well, we'll do it this way. I'm going to show you and ask
8 then the interpreter to translate the area that I boxed on
9 350145, 41, 47.
10 May I approach the witness, your Honor?
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 (Witness consults with interpreter)
13 (Pause)
14 A. What was the question? Repeat the question. This is the
15 same I tell you, I know Mahif is one of our group sit down
16 with me and they say the houses, the farm and we want to
17 switch it to somebody else that in your name.
18 Q. That isn't the question, Mr. Al Fadl. There were two
19 separate long audits of the businesses that you were running,
20 isn't that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And both of those audits resulted in the determination
23 that you were a thief, isn't that correct?
24 A. Yes, I remember in '95 they sat down with me and they tell
25 me, he tell me we have proved you stole money and we need all
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Al Fadl - cross
1 the property under your name to switch it to somebody else,
2 and we need that money back, and I remember that in '95.
3 Q. And the only reason that you finally admitted to Mr. Bin
4 Laden and Mr. Al Tayyib was because two times they had audits
5 and it was absolutely certain you couldn't deny it any more,
6 you were caught, wasn't that correct?
7 A. Yes, he tell me somebody tell us you took commission from
8 the sugar and oil.
9 Q. And that was the last time when you had this
10 conversation -- withdrawn.
11 The last time that you actually saw Mr. Bin Laden was
12 in the summer of 1995, isn't that right?
13 A. I don't remember the month but in '95.
14 Q. It was the summertime of 1995?
15 A. I really don't remember but I remember in '95.
16 Q. Well, let's see if I can find where you told the
17 government -- didn't you tell the government back in 1996 that
18 the last time that you saw Mr. Bin Laden was the summer of
19 1995?
20 A. I remember in '95 but I really don't remember the month or
21 I remember if I say summer or winter.
22 Q. Well, the winter meaning in January or February?
23 A. No, the summer in Sudan between March until September and
24 the winter start from November until January. We have long
25 summer in Sudan, six months.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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1 Q. So what is your best guess as to when you saw him last,
2 what month?
3 A. Probably between May and September or May and October.
4 Q. And you didn't leave until February of '95, is that
5 correct?
6 A. Yes, correct.
7 Q. You were still going about your business having financial
8 problems with al Sadani, isn't that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And it wasn't until February that you left?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the reason that you left was because you were afraid
13 of the NIF?
14 A. And Bin Laden, also.
15 Q. You hadn't seen Bin Laden for months?
16 A. But I see the people groups, the membership.
17 Q. But nobody bothered you, the NIF was your concern, wasn't
18 it?
19 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, --
20 A. Try my best to be back to the group and I remember I think
21 it was Bin Laden talk to him and he say we want to know why
22 you do that. We not care about money, but we care about you
23 the first one that join the group.
24 Q. When was that?
25 A. I really don't remember the month.
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1 Q. Was that after the summer of 1995?
2 A. I don't remember really, but I remember that the last
3 conversation between me and him and I went back to Mahib and I
4 went back to Abu Rida al Suni and they tell me the best thing
5 for you if you bring all the money.
6 Q. I'm going to show you what's marked 3501-45, page 2. I
7 ask you to read the area that has been circled.
8 May I approach, your Honor?
9 (Document handed to witness. Witness consults with
10 interpreter)
11 (Pause)
12 Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to the last time --
13 withdrawn. Does that refresh your recollection?
14 A. Yes, summer '95.
15 Q. Last time that you saw Mr. Bin Laden was the summer of
16 1995?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And the time that you left Sudan was in February of 1996,
19 right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, you came to the United States and you didn't follow
22 the visa to go to school, did you?
23 A. Could you repeat the question?
24 Q. You went to the United States under false pretenses,
25 didn't you?
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1 A. Well, I went to the embassy and gave me I20. That's why.
2 Q. For a student and you never went to school?
3 A. No, you're right.
4 THE COURT: Are you --
5 MR. SCHMIDT: I'm finishing up, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: I know you're finishing up, but don't
7 finish up by being repetitious.
8 MR. SCHMIDT: I'm trying not to.
9 Q. You took an oath to your first wife and then you violated
10 that, didn't you?
11 A. I don't know what you mean by oath with wife?
12 Q. You married your first wife and without permission you
13 went and married somebody in the United States, isn't that
14 right?
15 A. What I tell you in our religion some scholars they say you
16 marry the second one, you don't have to tell the first one.
17 Some scholars say you should tell the first one you going
18 to marry. If she want to save you she can, if not, she got
19 divorce.
20 Q. Second one advised you and you got married illegally?
21 A. No.
22 Q. In the United States?
23 A. No, we went to the church and all haka comes and we make
24 the --
25 Q. But the church doesn't allow people to marry a second wife
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1 in the United States?
2 A. I still don't know. I'm teenager, I don't know the law,
3 and I don't know.
4 Q. You came and you took an oath to al Qaeda, didn't you?
5 A. Yes, bayat.
6 Q. And a number of things in there like not stealing you
7 violated that oath, didn't you?
8 A. Yes, I stole some money.
9 Q. You went to the bank and promised to pay money back and
10 you didn't?
11 A. This is Islamic National Front their problem, not my
12 problem, because they say you going to bring the loan from
13 Khartoum bank and they never did. And that's why the problem
14 with them.
15 Q. That wasn't your fault, right?
16 A. Well, I went to the manager of that Islamic University and
17 he runs the business for Islamic National Front. He give me
18 letter to Dr. Masorji, manager Khartoum bank, and all they say
19 we going to give you loan, we going to give you loan and when
20 somebody tell me Abu al Masry.
21 THE COURT: This question is only going to lead to
22 repetition.
23 Q. My question, your Honor, did not call for that whole
24 answer. I didn't want to interrupt him.
25 Mr. Al Fadl, is there any oath that you've ever taken
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1 in your life that you have kept?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What's that?
4 A. Muslim. I do my prayer, and I believe God, I believe my
5 prophet Mohammed.
6 Q. You select the oaths to your God that --
7 A. No.
8 Q. -- you decide to follow, isn't that right?
9 A. No. When I join the al Qaeda a lot of al Qaeda group I
10 it's not right job, some because it's good job, some because
11 it's not good job. When we are in Pakistan we have only some
12 book, al Qaeda group we read, but when we went to Sudan it's
13 more chance for me and other members they read other books,
14 they enjoy other scholars, they go to its mosque and that's
15 the difference when we reach Sudan, it's a lot of difference.
16 BY MR. SCHMIDT:
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Al Fadl.
18 THE WITNESS: You welcome.
19 THE COURT: Redirect.
20 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, Judge.
21 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
23 Q. If I may approach the witness with 3501-42.
24 MR. SCHMIDT: May I have a moment, your Honor, so I
25 can get up to speed?
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1 (Pause)
2 Q. May I approach with 3501-41 which I believe has been
3 received in evidence as defense exhibit A, and I also approach
4 with what has been marked as 3501-22.
5 Now, sir, if you look at 3501-41 the copy of defense
6 exhibit A, that's a document that you looked at the other day
7 and was offered in evidence by Mr. Baugh. Do you recall
8 seeing that document?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And is that document in Arabic or English?
11 A. It's in Arabic.
12 Q. Did you look at 3501-42, the other document, one page.
13 (Witness consults with interpreter)
14 THE INTERPRETER: All of it?
15 Q. All of it, the one page is that an English translation of
16 the document that is marked 3501-41.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you sign the document 3501-42?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And was that in Europe?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, subject to redaction
23 which are to be discussed with counsel at a later point, I
24 just would offer 3501-42 as a translation of defense exhibit
25 A.
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1 THE COURT: Subject to the?
2 MR. BAUGH: Subject to the redaction, yes.
3 THE COURT: Received subject to redaction, and that
4 is received as Government Exhibit?
5 MR. FITZGERALD: Government Exhibit 2.
6 (Government's Exhibit 2 received in evidence)
7 Q. And, sir, if I could just ask to be displayed on the
8 screen for the witness and counsel only, Government Exhibit 1.
9 Mr. Al Fadl, if you can look at the TV screen to your
10 left I'm going to page through Government Exhibit 1 and my
11 only question to you is if you recognize what the document is.
12 Can you see the document from where you are?
13 I'm handing you a hard copy of Government Exhibit 1.
14 If you look through the document and tell us whether or not
15 you recognize what that document is?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know what that document is?
18 A. I believe this is the second agreement.
19 Q. Is that the agreement you testified that you signed once
20 you came to America?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would offer that
23 exhibit again subject to redaction which we can discuss later.
24 THE COURT: Received without objection subject to
25 redaction.
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1 (Government's Exhibit 1 received in evidence)
2 Q. The other day Mr. Baugh asked you a question about whether
3 or not you were aware that the Witness Protection Program
4 expended approximately $794,000 on you and your family. My
5 question to you is, whether or not you are aware the medical
6 expenses, the medical component of those expenses constituted
7 approximately $308,000?
8 MR. BAUGH: Objection to the form.
9 THE COURT: Overruled.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Are you aware, sir, that just the expense for documents
12 for you and your family totaled approximately $132,000?
13 A. Yes, if you --
14 MR. BAUGH: Objection.
15 MR. FITZGERALD: You have to wait for the Judge.
16 There was an objection:
17 THE COURT: Overruled.
18 Q. Yes, sir. Please don't tell us what the medical expenses
19 were for. Is that for your family's medical expenses?
20 A. Because for my --
21 Q. Let's not get into the medical procedure.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. Now, sir, we talked, you were asked questions about a
24 fatwa, and you talked about whether the scholars agree or
25 disagree and my question to you is this. If the scholars
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1 within al Qaeda cannot agree among each other, if scholars in
2 al Qaeda disagree, do they issue a fatwa?
3 MR. HERMAN: Judge, objection. I assume he's going
4 to answer based on his knowledge.
5 THE COURT: His knowledge and his understanding, yes.
6 Q. To your understanding, if the al Qaeda, if al Qaeda
7 scholars, the scholars within al Qaeda disagree on whether
8 something is Islamically correct or not, does al Qaeda issue a
9 fatwa?
10 A. No, if they don't, if you're not agreed, they not issue
11 fatwa.
12 Q. And if a fatwa is issued as an al Qaeda member, do you
13 understand that the al Qaeda scholars agree on what has been
14 issued?
15 A. Yes, they agree.
16 Q. Now, you were asked questions by Mr. Schmidt about
17 confidentiality and you stated in response to questions that
18 you were not told the reason that you were going to Hungary to
19 meet with a person. Do you remember those questions?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you did testify that you were told that the reason for
22 going to Zagreb had to do with business, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So your understanding was that the business in Hungary was
25 secret?
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1 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection, your Honor. This is a
2 leading question.
3 THE COURT: Yes, sustained to the form of the
4 question.
5 Q. Let me ask you this, sir. What were you told about the
6 person whom you were supposed to met in Hungary?
7 A. What I told from Abu Sarudi they told me when you go to
8 the guest house, and somebody in our group he going to meet
9 you over there, and follow what he tell you.
10 Q. So the person you were to meet was a Lebanese guy within
11 your group, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know whether or not that Lebanese person was Wadih
14 El Hage?
15 A. I really don't know.
16 Q. When was it that you went to Budapest?
17 A. What, the time?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. I think during '92, maybe September '92.
20 Q. And do you know as you sit here today whether or not Wadih
21 El Hage was traveling in Eastern Europe during September and
22 the fall of 1992?
23 A. I really don't remember.
24 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection to the form of the question,
25 September 1992.
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.
2 Q. As you sit here today do you know whether or not Wadih El
3 Hage was traveling in even Europe in September of 1992?
4 A. I don't know. I really don't know.
5 Q. Now, you were asked questions by Mr. Schmidt as to whether
6 or not you told the United States government hundreds of names
7 during the course of three months of being interviewed and
8 whether or not you did not mention the name of Wadih El Hage
9 until October 23, 1997.
10 Do you recall those questions?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you recall stating that you were not sure whether you
13 had mentioned the name Wadih before that, do you recall that?
14 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection. That is not his testimony,
15 your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Rephrase the question.
17 Q. Do you know whether or not you mentioned the name Wadia
18 prior to the date that Mr. Schmidt gave you October 23, 1997?
19 A. I know I mentioned the name but I don't know when. I
20 don't know what year and what month.
21 Q. Let me approach you with what has been marked as 3501-45,
22 page 146.
23 MR. SCHMIDT: What number is that?
24 MR. FITZGERALD: 3501-45, page 146.
25 I ask you if that refreshes your recollection that
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1 you told the United States government about Wadia in October
2 1996?
3 (Witness consults with interpreter)
4 (Pause)
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, you recall earlier Mr. Schmidt asked you questions
7 about a discussion within al Qaeda as to whether or not you
8 have an attack in Saudi Arabia that would kill civilians? Do
9 you recall those questions?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. He asked you whether or not a person from el jihad had
12 propose the attack, do you recall that question?
13 A. Could she help me?
14 Q. I'll speak slower.
15 (Witness consults with interpreter)
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who was the person within al jihad who proposed the attack
18 in Saudi Arabia?
19 A. The guy he told me about he want to do something in Saudi
20 Arabia about Muslims.
21 Q. And was Abu haf el Masry part of al Qaeda?
22 A. Yes, he's a second guy in committee.
23 Q. So he was both a member of al jihad and al Qaeda?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you stated earlier in response to a question to Mr.
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1 Schmidt that you were first told that if you joined al Qaeda
2 you could only belong to one group.
3 Can you explain to the jury how Abu haf el Masry
4 could belong to both al jihad and al Qaeda?
5 A. Because the jihad group, the work for al Qaeda agenda and
6 for jihad agenda, but always al Qaeda agenda first.
7 Q. If a person belongs to al jihad it's not considered a
8 violation of a promise to only work for al Qaeda?
9 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection, your Honor, leading
10 question.
11 THE COURT: I know you're trying to watch the clock
12 and I think it's causing you to ask leading questions.
13 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.
14 Q. Could a person belong to both al jihad and al Qaeda?
15 A. If what I say you can't join another group, the other
16 group they don't work for al Qaeda either, but like we have
17 groups they work and they made bayat to al Qaeda agenda and
18 jihad group, one of those groups.
19 Q. Now, you were asked questions earlier by Mr. Schmidt as to
20 whether or not the first time you ever told the government
21 that Bin Laden wanted to retaliate against the United States
22 for the arrest of Sheik Abu Rahman was today, do you recall
23 that conversation?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Let me show you 3501-8, page 4 and I'll direct your
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1 attention to the last sentence, actually the last three
2 sentences of the top paragraph on page 4 of 3501-8, and ask
3 you if that reflect your recollection -- well, refreshes your
4 recollection that you stated that as early as November, 1997?
5 (Witness consults with interpreter)
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, you've testified that approximately 13 to 20 people
8 left al Qaeda when there was not quick retaliation against the
9 United States for the arrest of Sheik Abdul Rahman?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you tell the jury how many people left al Qaeda when
12 Bin Laden stated that America was the head of the snake and
13 the main enemy?
14 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection.
15 A. I see none.
16 THE COURT: I didn't hear the answer.
17 A. Nobody.
18 Q. Now, Mr. Schmidt asked you earlier today whether or not
19 there was an awful lot of business going on in the Sudan when
20 Bin Laden was there.
21 Do you recall that question?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was there an awful lot of terrorism going on in the Sudan
24 when Bin Laden was there?
25 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection.
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1 THE COURT: Sustained.
2 Q. Was there an awful lot of work that you considered
3 military going on in the Sudan in 1992, 1993, and 1994?
4 A. You talked about al Qaeda group?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You were moving weapons?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Explosives?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Training?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Trying to buy uranium?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Trying to get chemical weapons?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. During that time, during the entire time that you were in
18 the Sudan during the entire time from 1991, '92, '93, and '94,
19 did anyone in al Qaeda ever tell you that you could not
20 discuss al Qaeda business military work in front of Wadia El
21 Hage?
22 A. No.
23 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you. Nothing further.
24 MR. SCHMIDT: Just a few questions.
25 THE COURT: Just a moment. Anything further?
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1 MR. BAUGH: I have one question or two.
2 THE COURT: Nothing on behalf of Odeh.
3 MR. HERMAN: Briefly.
4 THE COURT: Yes. My format on recross is to begin by
5 making a reference to the testimony that has been elicited
6 since the last time you examined the witness.
7 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. HERMAN:
9 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, you've been asked a lot of questions about
10 fatwas and whether a fatwa can be challenged if it's not
11 Islamically correct. All right. Let me just ask you this
12 question.
13 Did you say in a sworn affidavit that al Qaeda
14 organization, and this is 3501-40, an affidavit which if you
15 want to look at it I'm going to tell you that you signed it,
16 so if you want look at it to refresh your recollection --
17 THE COURT: Finish your question. Finish your
18 question.
19 Q. Here's the question.
20 Did you say the al Qaeda organization has members who
21 made bayat swore to the emir the prince of the organization
22 Usama Bin Laden? That sounds like something you would say and
23 swear to?
24 A. I didn't understand.
25 (Witness consults with interpreter)
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1 THE COURT: Can we stay a few minutes later and
2 complete this witness? Slow down. It's my fault. I rushed
3 you all. Slow down.
4 (Pause)
5 Please restate your question.
6 Q. Here's the question, and if you need the interpreter, the
7 al Qaeda organization had members who made bayat, that is
8 sworn allegiance to the emir prince of the organization, Usama
9 Bin Laden?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You understand that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You said that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you say this? By taking this oath the member obliges
16 himself to follow those orders of Usama Bin Laden as long as
17 they did not violate Islamic law?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you say that, yes or no?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. HERMAN: That's all I have. Thank you, sir.
22 THE COURT: Mr. Cohn.
23 RECROSS EXAMINATION
24 MR. COHN:
25 Q. On redirect Mr. Fitzgerald asked you whether or not a
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1 fatwa would be issued unless all the scholars agreed. Do you
2 remember that question and your answer to that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you said no, it would not. Is that right, that all
5 the scholars had to agree?
6 A. In al Qaeda group?
7 Q. In al Qaeda.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And that was generally known, was it not, that no fatwa
10 would be issued unless all the scholars agreed that it was
11 Islamically correct, is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And that would be the power of the fatwa that everybody
14 would know that the scholars, that the Islamic scholars all
15 agreed that that was Islamically correct under the law. Is
16 that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And, therefore, there would be no reason to argue with
19 that if you were somebody who actually heard the fatwa, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. But to obey the fatwa you of course had to hear what the
22 fatwa was, somebody had to communicate it to you, didn't they?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. STERN: We have no questions.
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1 THE COURT: No cross on behalf of K.K. Mohammed. Mr.
2 Schmidt.
3 BY MR. SCHMIDT:
4 Q. What was the name of islamic scholars who were in al
5 Qaeda?
6 A. Scholars name?
7 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 MR. FITZGERALD: Scope.
10 MR. SCHMIDT: I'm sorry?
11 THE COURT: I sustained the objection as being beyond
12 the scope of the redirect.
13 Q. You said that all of the scholars need to agree before a
14 fatwa was issued, isn't that your testimony?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Well, who are all of these scholars that have to agree?
17 MR. FITZGERALD: Same objection.
18 THE COURT: I'll allow it.
19 Q. You may answer.
20 A. Okay. What I remember now I remember Abu Ibrahim Irati,
21 Abu farajimni, first Egyptian, Ditar Abu Mahis, Abu Mohamed
22 Said Sharif, and Abu Mat Egyptian, and Bin Laden.
23 Q. Bin Laden?
24 A. Yes, with Bin Laden.
25 Q. He's a religious scholar for the fatwa?
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1 A. No, he's not scholar, but he know a lot in jihad. He very
2 focused and he know a lot about jihad.
3 Q. And what books or articles have the people that you said
4 are scholars published?
5 A. We --
6 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
7 THE COURT: Sustained.
8 Q. In fact, there was no fatwa committee in al Qaeda, was
9 there?
10 MR. FITZGERALD: Same objection.
11 THE COURT: I didn't hear.
12 Q. There was no fatwa committee in al Qaeda, was there?
13 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, scope.
14 THE COURT: I'll allow that.
15 A. Yes. We have fatwa committee in al Qaeda. That's why I
16 mentioned those scholars to you and we have book, we have
17 books farida kalma, just focused about what jihad means, the
18 fardh al ein and fardhal khafiya, and this is wrote by
19 Egyptian guy, his name is Ibin Salam.
20 Q. Was he there?
21 A. No, we use his book, because his book is focused on.
22 Q. There was a not a fatwa committee, it was a religious
23 committee?
24 A. The religious committee and the fatwa the same because the
25 religious committee they doing the fatwa job.
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1 Q. The religious committee, not the fatwa committee?
2 A. No, the fatwa, the most job about fatwa.
3 Q. Now, you told us that on in November of 1997 you had a
4 conversation about -- withdrawn.
5 The first time that you mentioned anything about
6 retaliation for the arrest of Sheik Rahman was in November of
7 1997, is that correct?
8 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, scope.
9 MR. SCHMIDT: That was --
10 THE COURT: That's a reference to 35018.
11 MR. SCHMIDT: That is correct.
12 Q. Is that right?
13 A. When the people retaliation?
14 Q. No, the first discussion was in November of 1997. Is that
15 right?
16 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, objection.
17 THE COURT: The question wasn't what the first
18 discussion was. Overruled. You may answer that.
19 Q. No? Was that no?
20 A. After the people --
21 Q. The first time that you spoke to an American about those
22 conversations was in November of 1997?
23 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form.
24 Q. Is that your testimony?
25 THE COURT: Overruled.
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1 A. I really don't remember the date or the year.
2 Q. Well, you had about forty different conversations with
3 American agents before you ever mentioned anything about the
4 retaliation, isn't that right?
5 A. It could be, yes. They ask the question. Whatever they
6 ask me, I answer.
7 Q. The training that the government referred to that went on
8 in 1992, 1993 and 1994 in the Sudan while you were there was
9 refreshing?
10 A. Yes. You're right.
11 Q. No new person was trained, right?
12 A. Could you say again?
13 Q. No new people were trained, is that right?
14 A. The people they train only for light weapons.
15 Q. Now, when you, there was you saw type of training in
16 Damizine when you visited those two times, right?
17 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
18 THE COURT: Sustained.
19 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, he talked about how much
20 training there was and I want to go into what that consists
21 of. I think I have a right to do that on recross.
22 THE COURT: Overruled.
23 MR. SCHMIDT: I'm overruled?
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 Q. No chemical weapons, you never saw any type of chemical
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1 weapons anywhere in the Sudan even in the Civil War in the
2 south of Sudan, isn't that right?
3 A. What you mean about chemical weapons?
4 Q. You never saw any kind of chemical weapons, did you?
5 A. Well, what I hear from the --
6 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, I asked you if you ever saw --
7 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
8 Q. -- any chemical weapons. I'm not asking for rumors.
9 THE COURT: Sustain. Sustained. I have a list of
10 questions that was asked on redirect. Begin your question by
11 saying, I refer to the following question asked you on
12 redirect, and I ask the following.
13 Q. I refer to your answer that there were chemical weapons
14 were going on in 1992, 1993 and 1994 asked by the prosecutor
15 earlier today. You said you never saw any chemical weapons in
16 the Sudan, is that correct, sir?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Yes or no?
19 A. No, that's not correct.
20 Q. You saw chemical weapons?
21 A. Yes, we have in Damazine house --
22 Q. That's what you saw?
23 A. Yes, because the people --
24 Q. That's what you call chemical weapons, explosives?
25 A. Yes.
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Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt
1 MR. SCHMIDT: Okay. I have no further questions.
2 May I have a moment, your Honor?
3 (Pause)
4 MR. SCHMIDT: I'm sorry. I apologize.
5 Q. Now, the government refreshed your recollection on
6 redirect with a reference to a person name Wadia that was
7 given on October 21, 1996, by you to government agents.
8 Do you recall being asked that question on redirect?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, the person that you described as Wadia you called an
11 unidentified Lebanese individual whose name, first name may be
12 Wadia, isn't that right?
13 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form.
14 THE COURT: Restate the question.
15 Q. The reference to Wadia was the result of you saying that
16 there were three people who were dressed in suits that went to
17 the US embassy one day. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And that people were making fun of them because they were
20 dressed in western attire as opposed to the normal Islamic
21 attire that people wore?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And the person that you, people that you said went there
24 was Usama Algani, right? That's not Mr. El Hage, right?
25 A. No, say, what I remember I say Abu.
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Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt
1 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, I'm trying to limit this
2 and I'm asking fairly simple questions.
3 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to the comment.
4 MR. SCHMIDT: And if he just answers my question --
5 MR. FITZGERALD: Move to strike.
6 THE COURT: Ask the question. Ask it so it can be
7 answered yes or no. I'll require the witness to answer yes or
8 no.
9 Q. Now, one word Usama Algani, is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And this Usama Algani is not Mr. El Hage, is that correct?
12 A. What I remember he is abu --
13 THE COURT: Now ask him about the other two.
14 MR. SCHMIDT: I didn't get a yes out of him, your
15 Honor. I asked him is Usama Algani Wadih El Hage and he
16 hasn't answered that question.
17 A. Well, I say no.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 A. But I tell you --
20 THE COURT: No, that's all. Just answer yes or no.
21 THE WITNESS: Okay, okay.
22 Q. One other person was Abu Kadisha al Iraqi, is that
23 correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the third person you described to the government
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Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt
1 agents was an unidentified Lebanese individual apparently also
2 a US citizen whose first real name may be Wadia. Isn't that
3 how you described that third person?
4 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
5 A. Yes, I tell them that if could be Wadia.
6 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, I asked the question --
7 THE COURT: Yes is the answer. Everything after yes
8 is stricken.
9 Q. When they asked you more about this Wadia that you
10 mentioned for the first time you told them that this Wadia's
11 name was Abu Ahmed?
12 A. Yes, because --
13 Q. Is that what you said, Abu Ahmed?
14 A. Yes, we use different names. That's what I told them I
15 told them he go by Ahmed and he got another name and other
16 name.
17 Q. Isn't it a fact that Mr. El Hage's only name, any Abu name
18 that you used is Abu Abdullah is father of Abdullah, isn't
19 that correct, Mr. Al Fadl, yes or no?
20 A. I know, yes, I know him also by Abdullah Ginani and when
21 he asked me come in my mind, the same.
22 Q. His oldest son is Abu Abdullah. You said that here in
23 court, isn't that right?
24 A. I don't know about the son, but in our group you use
25 nickname even if you don't have kids, like when they give me
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Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt
1 at work I don't have kids even, and still father of.
2 Q. You have never mentioned anywhere here other than claiming
3 that the war name is Abu Ahmed, isn't that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You also said that this Abu Ahmed lived in the bachelors
6 quarters, isn't that right?
7 A. What you mean bachelor?
8 Q. You said bachelors, single men quarters. Didn't you tell
9 the government that?
10 A. I really don't remember. I don't remember.
11 Q. Let's look back at this. May I approach the witness?
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 (Document handed to witness)
14 (Witness consults with interpreter)
15 A. Yes, I remember that.
16 Q. May I have that back, please. You're saying that this
17 event occurred in the end of 1993, is that correct?
18 A. Yes, I remember they asked me and I tell them that time he
19 came to the guest house as a single.
20 Q. Is it your testimony that at the end of 1993 the Wadia or
21 Abu Ahmed that you're talking about lived in bachelor quarters
22 in Khartoum, yes or no, Mr. Al Fadl?
23 A. No, this is not, it's hard to say yes or no. What I mean
24 to them, he came to the guest house single, but I don't mean
25 he have wife or no --
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Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt
1 Q. You said --
2 A. -- because I didn't --
3 Q. You said that he lived in bachelor quarters, isn't that
4 correct?
5 A. For me when say --
6 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, did you say that to the agents?
7 A. Yes, I tell them I saw him in his house, single.
8 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, did you say that yes or no?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you say this this man was about five foot eight, large
11 chest, almost blondish hair, over forty-five?
12 A. I really don't remember that.
13 (Witness handed document)
14 (Witness consults with interpreter)
15 A. I really don't remember if I say that or no.
16 Q. So you may have said he was a blondish man about
17 forty-five years old?
18 A. I really don't remember.
19 Q. Did you say that you didn't know whether he was in
20 Afghanistan?
21 A. No, he know he's Afghanistan.
22 Q. Did you say to the government on that day when you
23 described this Wadia that you didn't know if this Wadia was
24 ever in Afghanistan?
25 A. I really don't remember.
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Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt
1 Q. Take a look at that bottom again. See if that refresh
2 your recollection?
3 (Witness consults with interpreter)
4 A. I really don't remember.
5 Q. Whoever this Wadia was, this is the only information that
6 you had about him until the government told you about, asked
7 you about Wadia El Hage a year later, isn't that right.
8 A. They asked me a lot of questions about him and he give
9 them answers.
10 Q. This is the only thing that you ever mentioned during
11 those thirty-five or so meetings with US government
12 representatives in 1996, isn't that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. SCHMIDT: No further questions.
15 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
17 Q. First, Mr. Al Fadl, would you tell us what bachelor
18 quarters are? What is that?
19 A. It's a guest house for people when they came for visit and
20 they go back.
21 Q. Is that the name of a building?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do they check you to see if you have a wife or children
24 when you go into the building?
25 A. No, because you, maybe you live in other country and you
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Al Fadl - redirect
1 leave your wife and family over there but you come for short
2 visit and you go back.
3 Q. Mr. Schmidt just asked you if the only name that Mr. El
4 Hage was known by was Abu Abdullah. Wasn't he known by the
5 name Abu Sabbur?
6 MR. SCHMIDT: The only Abu name that I said --
7 Q. Did he have an --
8 A. Like what I said before, I known by Abu Sabbur.
9 Q. Let me show you 3501-45, page 146 which is the page that
10 Mr. Schmidt just asked you questions about. Mr. Schmidt asked
11 if that was the only information that you told the US
12 government. Is it a fact that you told the government on that
13 date that this person referred to as unidentified was
14 Lebanese, was a United States citizen, was in the Sudan, was
15 name Wadia, he worked with Abu Al Yemi, at Laden
16 International, he visited US and Russia on unknown business,
17 and he had a good relationship with Usama Bin Laden. Is that
18 correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How many people in the Sudan at that time were US citizens
21 from Lebanon named Wadia?
22 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection. There is no way of knowing.
23 THE COURT: I sustain the objection to that question.
24 Q. And, finally, Mr. Schmidt asked you whether or not you did
25 not tell the government in the first however many meetings
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Al Fadl - redirect
1 there were about a planned retaliation against United States
2 for the arrest of Sheik Omr Abdul Rahman?
3 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection, your Honor. His testimony
4 was that there wasn't a plan, not that there was a plan.
5 THE COURT: Restate your question.
6 Q. Mr. Schmidt asked you questions on when you first talked
7 to the government about a discussion concerning whether to
8 retaliate against the United States for the arrest of Sheik
9 Omar Abdel Rahman. Do you recall that question.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Let me show you 3501-45, pages 1 through 9, and I ask you
12 to look in particular at pages 6 and 9 and ask you if that
13 refreshes your recollection as to whether or not in the third
14 meeting with the government you laid out four different
15 options that were being discussed as to how to retaliate
16 against the United States for the arrest of Sheik Abdul
17 Rahman.
18 (Witness consults with interpreter)
19 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is asking what is the
20 question?
21 Q. The question is, did that refresh your recollection
22 whether or not in the third meeting with representatives of
23 the United States government you described particular plans
24 that had been discussed for retaliation against the United
25 States because of the arrest of Sheik Abdul Rahman. It's a
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Al Fadl - redirect
1 yes or no question. Do not tell us what the plans were.
2 (Witness consults with interpreter)
3 THE INTERPRETER: Which paragraphs?
4 MR. FITZGERALD: The ones that are underlined, look
5 at page 6 and page 9 in blue ink.
6 (Witness consults with interpreter)
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. FITZGERALD: Nothing further.
9 MR. SCHMIDT: Very briefly, your Honor.
10 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. SCHMIDT:
12 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, this group of Sheik Rahman group had their
13 own residences, separate from --
14 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, scope.
15 THE COURT: I didn't hear.
16 Q. This group was --
17 THE COURT: Which group are we talking about?
18 Q. The Sheik Rahman group was physically separated from the
19 residences of other al Qaeda members, weren't they?
20 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, scope.
21 THE COURT: Yes, sustained.
22 Q. You weren't at any of these meetings that supposedly
23 discussions took place about targeting American interests,
24 isn't that right?
25 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, scope.
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Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt
1 THE COURT: Sustained. The only question that was
2 asked was the date on which he spoke to the US agents about
3 this matter.
4 MR. SCHMIDT: He brought up the knowledge of other
5 ones, your Honor, and it's not because it's personal
6 knowledge. It's what somebody told him. That's the only
7 question.
8 THE COURT: Then ask one very specific question and
9 I'll allow it.
10 Q. This information about the plans by the Sheik Rahman group
11 was told to you second hand, isn't that correct?
12 (Witness consults with interpreter)
13 A. Well, I remember we were in the guest house when they were
14 talk about that.
15 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, were you present when these Sheik Rahman
16 people had the discussion or did somebody tell you about it a
17 discussion later on?
18 A. No, I remember we have talking when I was in the guest
19 house.
20 Q. Did somebody else tell you about those discussions?
21 A. We talk inside the guest house about that.
22 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
23 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained. Anything else?
24 MR. SCHMIDT: Yes.
25 Q. You seem to have remembered that --
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Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt
1 THE COURT: Sustained.
2 Q. In the end of 1993 how long was Mr. El Hage living in
3 Khartoum?
4 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, scope.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, he said the bachelor
7 quarters.
8 THE COURT: Sustained. Let's not get into an
9 argument.
10 MR. SCHMIDT: He said the bachelor quarters were
11 there for a short period of time.
12 I'll rephrase the question.
13 Q. You said that the bachelor quarters were for single people
14 there for a short period of time visiting Khartoum. Is that
15 correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How long had Mr. El Hage been in Khartoum by the end of
18 1993?
19 A. What I remember I saw him in the guest house but later on
20 I know he leave with somebody and he live in Rial City.
21 Q. Let me ask the interpreter to translate this.
22 How long was Mr. El Hage living in Khartoum by the
23 end of 1993? Please interpret it.
24 A. I don't know how long. I didn't count that.
25 Q. Didn't you say that you trained him in 1992?
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Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, scope.
3 MR. SCHMIDT: I have no other questions.
4 THE COURT: Anything further of the witness?
5 MR. SCHMIDT: No, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Thank you for your patience, ladies and
7 gentlemen. We'll resume tomorrow at 10 a.m.
8 (Continued on next page)
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1 (Jury not present)
2 THE COURT: The next order of business is what?
3 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would suggest that the
4 next order of business will be I believe the government will
5 offer in as CNN videotape from 1997. We'll call an agent who
6 will testify as to the authentication of certain items seized
7 in the search of Mr. El Hage's apartment.
8 THE COURT: Now, with respect to the tape you plan to
9 play the tape?
10 MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Karas can address that.
11 MR. KARAS: Yes, Judge, we're planning on playing the
12 whole tape.
13 THE COURT: Any objection to the tape?
14 MR. SCHMIDT: Yes. Yes, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: And what is the nature of the objection?
16 MR. SCHMIDT: Needlessly gory.
17 MR. KARAS: Just the interview.
18 MR. SCHMIDT: I withdraw my objection.
19 THE COURT: No objection to the interview being
20 played. All right. Then what happens?
21 MR. FITZGERALD: An agent who will testify as to the
22 authentication of items seized in the 1997 search of Mr. El
23 Hage's residence. Again Mr. Karas is familiar with any issues
24 that may be coming up on that.
25 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, we submitted a letter to the
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1 Court regarding and in limine motion. I don't know if there
2 is any response to that.
3 MR. WILFORD: There is, your Honor. Most
4 respectfully, the government submitted a motion in limine by
5 letter to the Court and has provided counsel with 3500
6 material. That 3500 material is severely redacted so what the
7 government in essence did was make a motion granting the
8 redacted material in advance without giving counsel an
9 opportunity to review the material and make a decision on its
10 own whether or not that particular material would be relevant
11 to any areas of cross-examination which the counsel would like
12 to go into.
13 The government would have an opportunity to object or
14 present to the Court particular areas of that testimony which
15 they think are beyond where they're going, but for the
16 government in advance to redact whole hog the entire witness'
17 prior statements, I think didn't give us a fair opportunity.
18 THE COURT: Let me refresh my recollection and see if
19 my recollection is correct. The government took the position
20 that the agent was being called for the sole purpose of
21 authenticating various exhibits and that the government wanted
22 a ruling that that was the sole limited purpose of the witness
23 who was not subject to cross-examination with respect to any
24 other matters unrelated to the authentication of the exhibit.
25 Is that the letter we're referring to?
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1 MR. KARAS: Yes, Judge, the letter mentioned that and
2 it specified four areas, and we like to exclude
3 cross-examination. Just so everybody is clear, the redactions
4 do not reflect those concerns. The redactions in the 3500
5 material are only of things contained in the written document
6 that are otherwise unrelated at all to the search, and that is
7 separate and apart from the four issues we had raised in our
8 in limine letter.
9 MR. WILFORD: Your Honor, there is no way for counsel
10 to know whether or not those issues are relevant. That's a
11 decision that the government is making. They may in fact be
12 prior statements.
13 THE COURT: The government is making a representation
14 to the Court that the matters redacted had no relevance to
15 what the subject matter of the witness' testimony is going to
16 be. I will ask the government to submit to me by 9 a.m.
17 tomorrow an unredacted copy so that I can look at that myself.
18 MR. KARAS: We have it right now.
19 MR. DRATEL: The only other issue with respect to the
20 four areas that the government wanted to, the government in
21 limine motion four areas with respect to of certain agencies
22 which we don't have a problem with that. We also don't have a
23 problem with in terms of cross-examination as with respect to
24 the legality of the Kenyan search not being an issue for the
25 jury, but with respect with respect to the foreign
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1 intelligence aspect of the search we have agreed I think with
2 the government to reserve that issue for stipulation if in
3 fact it become relevant.
4 The fourth issue at the Kenyan warrant and the
5 validity of warrant, and we would reserve the right to
6 cross-examination not with respect to the legality of the
7 search, but with respect to his credibility with respect to
8 the issue of that warrant. That is part of the 3500 material.
9 THE COURT: I don't understand. This witness is
10 going to testify on X day a warrant was executed and these are
11 the documents seized as a foundation for their being offered.
12 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I'm not saying that we're
13 going to cross him on the actual search. I'm saying we want
14 to reserve the right to use the material for credibility
15 purposes.
16 THE COURT: Use what material for credibility
17 purposes?
18 MR. DRATEL: The Kenyan warrant called for stolen
19 property. Suppose he had knowledge of that and knew that was
20 false and he used the warrant anyway, it has nothing to do
21 with the legality of the search. It's the government's
22 position that is set forth in the pretrial procedures with the
23 Court was that they weren't relying on the Kenyan warrant, so
24 that's why the Kenyan warrant has nothing to with the legality
25 of the search, but does go to the agent's credibility should
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1 we wish to attack it.
2 THE COURT: There is nothing in the world that can't
3 sought to be justified as a basis for cross under the rubric
4 of credibility, but assume for a moment the Kenyan warrant was
5 a ruse. How does that affect the credibility of the agent's
6 testimony that documents 1, 2, 3 and 4 were seized in
7 execution of that warrant?
8 MR. DRATEL: The other issue with respect to his
9 description of the search, your Honor, I don't know what his
10 testimony is going to be. That's why I'd like to reserve
11 that.
12 THE COURT: I'll revisit the question after his
13 direct which I take it is all that you're asking that I do,
14 but I think you know that you'll have a very heavy burden to
15 establish for me that issues with respect to the legality of
16 the Kenya warrant as a matter of Kenyan law are relevant to
17 the credibility of the agent who is being called solely for
18 purposes of identifying the results of the search.
19 MR. DRATEL: This agent has said in an affidavit he
20 was presented with that warrant and our position is that he
21 knew that that warrant was based on, that warrant was not,
22 there was no stolen property, should not be granted and was
23 not designed to get stolen property in the search.
24 THE COURT: And you believe that that circumstance
25 should permit him to be cross-examined with respect to his
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1 knowledge of the bona fides of the warrant so that the jury
2 may consider the credibility of his testimony that the things
3 being proffered are the things which resulted from that
4 search.
5 MR. DRATEL: Not just the things being proffered,
6 your Honor. It's also his execution of the search itself.
7 THE COURT: I will permit you to revisit the issue
8 prior to cross-examination.
9 MR. KARAS: Just so counsel is aware, we don't even
10 intend on our direct to elicit that the Kenyans have for being
11 on the premises for the reason that we don't think that the
12 legality of the Kenya participation is relevant to the factual
13 question that's presented by the introduction of the evidence.
14 So we're not even going to get into that issue at all.
15 THE COURT: I'll revisit the issue after I've heard
16 the direct. We're only dealing with a permissible scope of
17 cross, and not whether defendant can call the witness as its
18 own witness as part of the defense case should that somehow be
19 relevant. Mr. Schmidt?
20 MR. SCHMIDT: No, I'm just leaning forward, your
21 Honor.
22 MR. WILFORD: Your Honor, there is --
23 THE COURT: Let me just explore a moment. I think
24 the first order of business today was that you were reserving
25 some right for further material following the
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1 cross-examination of the last witness? Is that all moot now?
2 MR. SCHMIDT: No, it's not. It's moot as to cross
3 examination of this witness, but it is not moot as to
4 production of documents, but we don't --
5 THE COURT: Would you let me have in writing what
6 material you feel you are now entitled to have in light of the
7 examination of this witness? Can I have that by Friday
8 morning?
9 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, if I may, depending on the
10 following witnesses it may or may not require that. If I am
11 going to require the production of documents it would be
12 documents that I would offer in the defendant's case which is
13 not ripe yet, but I ask that we wait. I really do need that
14 because I don't need to do that extra work.
15 THE COURT: All right. I want to avoid the problem
16 of having to recall this witness from wherever he is or
17 wherever he is going in the near future. Since you tell me
18 that it relates to the defendant's case.
19 MR. WILFORD: Yes, your Honor. May I bring up
20 scheduling concerns for the Court's attention?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 MR. WILFORD: Can we speak to the Court out of
23 public?
24 THE COURT: You want to speak to me privately? Any
25 objection? You want a reporter?
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1 MR. WILFORD: No, it's not necessary.
2 (Discussion off the record in the robing room)
3 (In open court)
4 THE COURT: That matter related to scheduling
5 sometime next week. Is there any matter that requires the
6 Court's attention prior to bringing in the jury tomorrow
7 morning?
8 MR. SCHMIDT: There are still some discovery things
9 that need to be resolved, some of which we're trying to
10 resolve and some of them we think we may end up --
11 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, there are some other
12 issues we're trying to resolve with the defense. But we'll
13 have that private squabble later.
14 THE COURT: All right. Let's adjourn then till 9:45
15 tomorrow. I'll be here if we need anything further.
16 (Adjourned to 9:45 a.m., Wednesday, January 21, 2001)
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1
2 INDEX OF EXAMINATION
3 Witness D X RD RX
4 JAMAL AHMED MOHAMED AL-FADL 888 889 1031 1042
5 1055 1058
6 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS
7 Exhibit No. Received
8 2 ..........................................1033
9 1 ..........................................1034
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