26 March 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of
New York; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 22 of the trial, 26 March 2001.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm
3224
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
4 v. S(7) 98 Cr. 1023
5 USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,
6 Defendants.
7 ------------------------------x
8
New York, N.Y.
9 March 26, 2001
10:00 a.m.
10
11
12 Before:
13 HON. LEONARD B. SAND,
14 District Judge
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3225
1 APPEARANCES
2 MARY JO WHITE
United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
BY: PATRICK FITZGERALD
4 KENNETH KARAS
PAUL BUTLER
5 Assistant United States Attorneys
6
SAM A. SCHMIDT
7 JOSHUA DRATEL
KRISTIAN K. LARSEN
8 Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage
9 ANTHONY L. RICCO
EDWARD D. WILFORD
10 CARL J. HERMAN
SANDRA A. BABCOCK
11 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh
12 FREDRICK H. COHN
DAVID P. BAUGH
13 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali
14 JEREMY SCHNEIDER
DAVID STERN
15 DAVID RUHNKE
Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3226
1 (Trial resumes; jury not present)
2 THE COURT: If we do not sit on Wednesday or
3 Thursday, will we nevertheless need interpreters?
4 Unless they have a certain number of days' notice,
5 they are fully compensated. Money is no object, but one
6 doesn't really want to waste money.
7 MR. FITZGERALD: Unless clients intend to be present
8 on the Thursday 10:00 conference, they do not appear to be
9 necessary.
10 MR. COHN: On Thursday my client wants to be there.
11 We've checked with him.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, just a housekeeping -- more
14 than a housekeeping matter. As I understand it, there are no
15 interpreters who have arrived yet. I have spoken to my client
16 about it. He's comfortable with proceeding. I understand
17 there are relatives of victims here who will not have an
18 interpreter. It's not a problem for us. We can proceed.
19 THE COURT: Does anybody have any information about
20 the Swahili interpreters?
21 MR. RUHNKE: Still not quite 10:00, your Honor.
22 MR. FITZGERALD: I'll inquire.
23 THE COURT: The next order of business is going to be
24 the continuation of the --
25 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, Judge.
3227
1 (Pause)
2 MR. FITZGERALD: The interpreter is arriving.
3 THE COURT: We hear the interpreter is arriving so
4 that matter is resolved.
5 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: All right. The jury is on its way.
7 I thought all the jurors were here. Apparently one
8 juror has not yet arrived, so we'll have to give some more
9 time.
10 (Pause)
11 THE COURT: All the jurors are present and they will
12 be coming in.
13 A juror requested that we take more frequent breaks
14 because of his medical condition, of which we were apprised
15 during the jury selection process, and so we will break every
16 hour and a half. That will not be a major problem.
17 (Jury present)
18 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
19 THE JURY: Good morning.
20 THE COURT: I have received a request for more
21 frequent breaks during the course of the trial and I will
22 honor that request, and if I get carried away or absorbed in
23 the proceedings and anybody wants a break for any reason, just
24 raise your hand and we'll declare a break. Glad to
25 accommodate that.
3228
1 Is the next orders of business the resumption of the
2 reading of the Grand Jury minutes?
3 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: You recall we're reading the Grand Jury
5 minutes of appearance of the defendant El Hage before the
6 Grand Jury and this is still on September 16, 1998.
7 MR. FRANCISCO: Resuming at page 70, line 8:
8 "Q. Are you familiar with a company known as T-A-H-E-E-R
9 Limited?
10 "A. Yes.
11 "Q. Why don't you tell you the Grand Jury what Taheer Ltd.
12 is?
13 "A. It's a company that was formed by this person here.
14 "Q. And you're pointing to the person depicted in Grand Jury
15 Exhibit 2, with today's date, correct?
16 "A. Right.
17 "Q. Who else was involved in the company known as Taheer
18 Ltd.?
19 "A. Adel Habib.
20 "Q. Abdel Habib.
21 "The person you identified in the photo depicted as
22 Grand Jury Exhibit 6 with today's date?
23 "A. That's true.
24 "Q. So those two gentlemen, the person from Grand Jury
25 Exhibit 2 and the person from Grand Jury Exhibit 6, were in
3229
1 business together at Taheer Ltd.?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. What kind of business?
4 "A. I think mining.
5 "Q. Mining?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Where?
8 "A. In Tanzania.
9 "Q. And when they did mining in Tanzania, were you involved
10 in business with them?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. Why did you have some of the documents for Taheer Ltd. in
13 your files?
14 "A. I never had any of that.
15 "Q. Did Taheer Ltd. when it engaged in mining, did it use
16 explosives in order to carry out the mining?
17 "A. I don't know. I never knew any of their work, any of the
18 details of their work.
19 "Q. But yet when the person in Grand Jury Exhibit 6, Adel
20 Habib, drowned, you were selected to go investigate with the
21 person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 2 and with Harun,
22 correct?
23 "A. What do you mean, I was selected?
24 "Q. You were asked to go to the scene of the incident to find
25 out whether or not Adel Habib had drowned, correct?
3230
1 "A. I decided to go there.
2 "Q. Why don't you tell the Grand Jury why you decided to go
3 investigate the ferry sinking.
4 "A. Because he was one of my colleagues in the agency.
5 "Q. And you didn't know how he carried out his mining
6 businesses, whether or not he used explosives?
7 "A. No, I did not.
8 "Q. Let me show you what's Grand Jury Exhibit 44 for today's
9 date, which states "To whom it may concern: Adel Habib.
10 Mr. A. Habib was on the ship MV B-u-k-o-b-a that sank, killing
11 over 500 people."
12 "Do you recognize that document?
13 "A. No, I don't remember seeing it.
14 "Q. You don't recognize Grand Jury Exhibit 44?
15 "A. No.
16 "Q. You went to investigate the drowning of Adel Habib,
17 correct?
18 "A. Correct.
19 "Q. Did you obtain a document to verify that Adel Habib had
20 drowned?
21 "A. No, I never did.
22 "Q. Did you know who did?
23 "A. Probably his family or his business associate.
24 "Q. Okay. And you will agree with me that this is in a
25 plastic cover protected from fingerprints as we look at it?
3231
1 "A. Right.
2 "Q. And you never touched that document before, right?
3 "A. I don't remember seeing it.
4 "Q. Why don't you tell the Grand Jury who Abu Badr is. And
5 I'll write that name on the list in front of you.
6 "Do you recognize that name?
7 "A. I think he's my brother-in-law.
8 "Q. You think he's your brother-in-law?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. Why don't you tell us what your brother-in-law's name is.
11 "A. Not brother-in-law, he's the husband of my sister-in-law.
12 "Q. Why don't you tell us the name of the husband of your
13 sister-in-law.
14 "A. A-t-i-f A-b-u L-i-a-n.
15 "Q. And he's also known as Abu Badr to you?
16 "A. His son's name is Badr.
17 "Q. His son's name is Badr?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. And Abu means father of?
20 "A. Correct.
21 "Q. Why don't you tell us who Jeff is.
22 "A. Jeff?
23 "Q. Jeff, J-e-f-f.
24 "A. I don't recall this name.
25 "Q. How about Mr. Jeff there, see if that helps, and I'm
3232
1 writing this all on Grand Jury Exhibit 66.
2 "A. I don't recall this.
3 "Q. Okay, the next name is Abu S-u-l-i-m-a-n.
4 "A. Abu Suliman, I recall a Saudi guy who was in Afghanistan.
5 "Q. A Saudi guy in Afghanistan?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Do you know where he is now?
8 "A. No, I don't recall where he's at.
9 "Q. When was the last time you spoke to or saw Abu Suliman?
10 "A. Somewhere in the late '80s.
11 "Q. Do you know of anyone that you have spoken to in the
12 1990s that you called Abu Suliman?
13 "A. No, I don't.
14 "Q. Okay. I'll write these darker and I'll ask you, do you
15 know an Abu Mohamed, A-b-u M-o-h-a-m-e-d, also on Grand Jury
16 Exhibit 66?
17 "A. Abu Mohamed.
18 "Q. Abu Mohamed.
19 "A. I've had heard this name many times, different people. I
20 can't recall anyone recently.
21 "Q. Did you ever speak to Abu Mohamed on the telephone?
22 "A. I don't recall.
23 "Q. Did you ever write letters or exchange letters with Abu
24 Mohamed?
25 "A. I don't recall.
3233
1 "Q. How about N-A-W-A-W-I? Do you know who Nawawi is?
2 "A. Nawawi? I recall one person in Sudan.
3 "Q. Okay. Tell us about the person in Sudan who is known as
4 Nawawi.
5 "A. Nothing much to tell you. He's an Egyptian.
6 "Q. Egyptian?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. And how did you meet this Egyptian fellow named Nawawi?
9 "A. I was working in the same company in Sudan.
10 "Q. Which company was that?
11 "A. Wadi al Aqiq?
12 "Q. And what was he doing for Wadi al Aqiq?
13 "A. I don't recall. One of the jobs over there, he was
14 taking care of one of the jobs over there.
15 "No, there, not here.
16 "Q. You left Sudan in 1994?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. Did you stay in touch with Nawawi after you left Sudan?
19 "A. Probably talked to him over the phone a couple of times.
20 "Q. And when you talked to him over the phone a couple of
21 times, where were you living?
22 "A. In Nairobi.
23 "Q. And where was Nawawi living?
24 "A. I think in Sudan.
25 "Q. Did you ever call him anyplace other than in Sudan?
3234
1 "A. No.
2 "Q. What does the word 'Nawawi' mean in Arabic?
3 "A. I don't know. It's a famous name for a scholar.
4 "Q. Famous name for a scholar, did you say?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. Did you ever talk to Nawawi while you were in the --
7 while you, Wadih El Hage, were in the United States?
8 "A. After I came back here?
9 "Q. At any time did you ever call Nawawi while you were in
10 the United States?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. Did you ever see Nawawi while you were in the United
13 States?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. Did you ever hear of Nawawi living in the United States?
16 "A. No.
17 "Q. Did you ever hear of Nawawi traveling to the United
18 States?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. Do you know a person by the name of Ihab Mohamed Ali, and
21 I'm writing that again on Grand Jury Exhibit 66 and I'm
22 spelling it as I-H-A-B M-O-H-A-M-E-D A-L-I.
23 "A. Yes, I know Ihab, but I don't know the other names. I
24 remember Ihab.
25 "Q. Ihab?
3235
1 "A. Yes.
2 "Q. Who is Ihab?
3 "A. He's an Egyptian.
4 "Q. And where do you know Ihab the Egyptian from?
5 "A. I knew him from Arlington, Texas in '92.
6 "Q. Did he live there at the time?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. Did you ever see Ihab the Egyptian in Sudan?
9 "A. In Sudan? No.
10 "Q. Did you ever see him in Kenya?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. When was the last time you had contact with that Ihab the
13 Egyptian?
14 "A. I saw him a month or two ago in Arlington. He moved out
15 of Arlington but was visiting."
16 THE COURT: He moved to Arlington but was visiting.
17 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I believe there was a
18 stipulation as to that one sentence, that that would be
19 corrected. So, apologize.
20 "Q. Where does he live now?
21 "A. I don't know.
22 "Q. Does he live in Texas?
23 "A. I don't know. I can find out.
24 "Q. Do you know of him ever living in Florida?
25 "A. I don't know.
3236
1 "Q. Do you know any other Ihab besides Ihab the Egyptian?
2 "A. No.
3 "Q. The last time you went to Pakistan -- strike that. In
4 the years 1994, '95, '96, '97 and '98, how many times have you
5 traveled to either Pakistan or Afghanistan?
6 "A. '94 through --
7 "Q. The present.
8 "A. The present, twice. To Pakistan.
9 "Q. And both times to Pakistan?
10 "A. Right.
11 "Q. Did you ever cross into Afghanistan?
12 "A. No.
13 "Q. When you were in Afghanistan, did you see Usama Bin
14 Laden?
15 "A. No.
16 "Q. Did you see any of his representatives?
17 "A. I saw one.
18 "Q. Who?
19 "A. His name is Abu Yasser.
20 "Q. Abu Yasser?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. What nationality is Abu Yasser?
23 "A. He's an Algerian.
24 "Q. And why did you see Abu Yasser, the Algerian?
25 "A. I happened to meet him in Islamabad.
3237
1 "Q. Did he give you any messages from anyone?
2 "A. No.
3 "Q. Did you give any messages to Abu Yasser to give to
4 anyone?
5 "A. No.
6 "Q. Did you meet Abu Hafs when you were in Pakistan?
7 "A. No.
8 "Q. Did you send any messages to Abu Hafs while you were in
9 Pakistan?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. Did you tell anyone you were going to see Abu Hafs while
12 you were in Pakistan?
13 "A. No.
14 "Q. Did you tell anyone you were going to see Taysir,
15 T-A-Y-S-I-R, or T-A-Y-S-E-E-R, as the names are spelled on
16 Grand Jury Exhibit 66?
17 "A. No.
18 "Q. Let me show you again Grand Jury Exhibit 65, the person
19 you told the Grand Jury you've seen once in New York perhaps
20 at the Services Office in the 1980's, correct?
21 "A. Correct.
22 "Q. Do you know the name, sir, Ali, A-L-I M-O-H-A-M-E-D?
23 "A. Ali Mohamed?
24 "Q. Yes, I'll write that on Grand Jury Exhibit 66, Ali
25 Mohamed, A-L-I M-O-H-A-M-E-D.
3238
1 "Do you recognize that name?
2 "A. I can't recall.
3 "Q. Sir, isn't it a fact that the person depicted in Grand
4 Jury Exhibit 65 is Ali Mohamed, yes or no?
5 "A. I don't know.
6 "Q. Isn't it a fact that the person depicted in Grand Jury
7 Exhibit 65 is also known to you as Jeff?
8 "A. I don't know.
9 "Q. Yes or no, you don't know?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. Isn't it a fact, sir, that you are known to the person
12 depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 65 as Norman?
13 "A. I don't know.
14 "Q. Let me write out one more name, Wa'da Norman, W-A,
15 apostrophe, D-A, Norman, N-O-R-M-A-N.
16 "Who is that?
17 "A. I don't know.
18 "Q. You don't know?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. And do you know anyone in California?
21 "A. Anyone in California.
22 "Q. Yes.
23 "A. My sister is in California.
24 "Q. Do you know any men in California?
25 "A. M-U-S-A-L-A-M.
3239
1 "Q. And who is Musalam?
2 "A. He's a friend of mine. I've known since I was in
3 Louisiana, in school.
4 "Q. What does he do in California for work?
5 "A. He's a technician. He works with the Transportation
6 Department.
7 "Q. Is Musalam the person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 65?
8 "A. Is that him?
9 "Q. Yes.
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. Now, sir, are you familiar -- did you have a post office
12 box when you lived in Nairobi?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. Do you recall the number of the post office box?
15 "A. No, but I probably have it written somewhere. I can't
16 remember.
17 "Q. Would you remember it if you heard it?
18 "A. Most probably.
19 "Q. Would it be post office box 72239?
20 "A. Correct.
21 "Q. And when did you get the post office box known as 72239?
22 "A. In '94.
23 "Q. And how long did you keep it for?
24 "A. Till the end of '97.
25 "Q. And was that for personal mail or business mail or both?
3240
1 "A. That's for the relief agency.
2 "Q. Let me show you what has been marked as Grand Jury
3 Exhibit 48 with today's date, and it's an envelope dated March
4 17, 1995.
5 "Now, that would be a day that you were living in
6 Kenya, correct?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. And it's directed to Mr. Wa'da Norman, P.O. Box 72239.
9 That would be your P.O. box, correct?
10 "A. Yes.
11 "Q. Nairobi, Kenya?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. What did you do when you opened your post office box and
14 found a letter addressed to Wa'da Norman?
15 "A. I don't remember seeing this letter.
16 "Q. Who is Wa'da Norman?
17 "A. I don't know.
18 "Q. Is it you?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. Are you aware, sir, that the person depicted in Grand
21 Jury Exhibit 65 is known as Ali Mohamed and that at that time
22 he worked at the address listed on the return envelope,
23 Westinghouse Electric Corporation, Sunnyvale, California; are
24 you aware of that, sir?
25 "A. Am I aware of what?
3241
1 "Q. That the person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 65 worked
2 at the return address listed on the exhibit marked Government
3 Exhibit 48.
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. You have no idea, then, why whoever it was that sent this
6 letter would send it to Wa'da Norman at your post office box?
7 "A. I don't have any idea.
8 "Q. Are you still telling this grand jury that you are not
9 known as Norman or Wa'da Norman?
10 "A. Yes, I'm not Norman.
11 "Q. That's not your code name within the Usama Bin Laden
12 organization, is it?
13 "A. I was never in his organization.
14 "Q. Did you ever have a code name from Usama Bin Laden?
15 "A. No.
16 "Q. Have you ever written any letters and signed them with
17 the name Norman at the bottom?
18 "A. No, never.
19 "Q. Let me show you what has been marked as Grand Jury
20 Exhibit 42. Again, it's in a plastic envelope to protect for
21 fingerprints, and I'll ask you if you recognize what that
22 document is.
23 "A. Do you want me to read it?
24 "Q. Read it and tell me if you recognize it.
25 "For the benefit of the Grand Jury, I'll hand out
3242
1 copies of that document.
2 "Having looked at Grand Jury Exhibit 42, do you
3 recognize it, sir?
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. Do you recognize the handwriting?
6 "A. Very close to mine.
7 "Q. Very close to yours?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. Could it be yours?
10 "A. I don't think so.
11 "Q. Have you ever seen handwriting that close to your
12 handwriting in your entire life on a letter you did not write?
13 "A. I have.
14 "Q. Who writes like that besides you?
15 "A. I don't know who is it, but I have seen handwriting very
16 close to mine.
17 "Q. Okay. Now, look at that document.
18 "Do you know Nawawi, the name N-A-W-A-W-I?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. You mentioned you knew a Nawawi in Sudan?
21 "A. Yes, that's true?
22 "Q. Let me ask you and we'll finish for lunch before we go
23 through this letter.
24 "Dear Mr. Nawawi." Would that be to a person who
25 lives in Florida who is a friend of Usama Bin Laden?
3243
1 "A. You're asking me?
2 "Q. Yes.
3 "A. I don't know.
4 "Q. You don't know.
5 "Continuing on: The middle where it says, 'Tayseer
6 and his friends are still hiking and they enjoy it very
7 much.'?
8 "Is Tayseer a reference to Abu Hafs al Masry, one of
9 the military commanders for Usama Bin Laden, yes or no?
10 "A. I don't know.
11 "Q. When it says, 'They called me yesterday,' it continues,
12 'from a place where they were having a curry meal,' that was
13 an indication that Abu Hafs is in training somewhere near
14 India?
15 "A. I don't know.
16 "Q. Continuing on: 'The fishing business is all right.'
17 "Do you know who was in the fishing business in
18 Kenya?
19 "A. Anyone in the fishing business? Yeah, I know some Kenyan
20 people in the fishing business.
21 "Q. What are the names of the people in the fishing business?
22 "A. I don't recall any right now.
23 "Q. Was one of the people in the fishing business a person
24 depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 5 with today's date?
25 "A. I don't know.
3244
1 "Q. When it continues on, 'Please pass our best regards to
2 Mr. Jeff,' did you understand that to be a message to say
3 something to the person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 65?
4 "A. No, I do not understand that.
5 "Q. You have never seen this letter before?
6 "A. No.
7 "Q. You did not write this letter?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. And the letter which is in a plastic covering has never
10 been touched by you, as far as you remember, correct?
11 "A. Correct.
12 "Q. Okay, you have no reason to believe your fingerprints
13 would be on this letter?
14 "A. I don't think so, no.
15 "Q. Why don't we break for lunch and pick up at 2:00.
16 "(Witness excused.)
17 "(Time noted: 1:00 p.m.)
18 "(luncheon recess.)
19 "Certificate. State of New York, County of New York.
20 "I, Tracy A. Thompson, CSR, hereby certify that the
21 foregoing is a true and accurate transcript, to the best of my
22 skill and ability, from my stenographic notes of this
23 proceeding.
24 "Tracy A. Thompson, Acting Grand Jury Reporter."
25 Government Exhibit 420B.
3245
1 "(Colloquy precedes.)
2 "(Time noted: 2:07 p.m.)
3 "(Witness enters room.)"
4 MR. FITZGERALD: Start on page 2.
5 MR. FRANCISCO: "THE FOREPERSON: I remind you you're
6 are still under oath.
7 "Wadih El Hage, resumed and testified further as
8 follows:
9 "Q. Now, Mr. El Hage, over the lunch break or being that the
10 lunch break has passed, are there any answers that you wish to
11 change to the sworn testimony you have given this Grand Jury?
12 "A. No, nothing I want to change.
13 "Q. Okay. Now, let me approach you with what has been marked
14 as Grand Jury Exhibit 67 and Grand Jury Exhibit 68, both of
15 which bear today's date of 9/16/98, and ask you if you
16 recognize either of these documents.
17 "A. No. No.
18 "Q. Okay. Now, you have indicated that you do not recognize
19 either Grand Jury Exhibit 67 or 68?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. Now, if I advise you that these documents were obtained
22 with dozens of other documents from the same company which is
23 marked in the lower left corner called Chemko, C-H-E-M-K-O,
24 indicating an address in Slovakia, and then on the right there
25 are some phones numbers, do you remember ever dealing with the
3246
1 company called Chemko in Slovakia?
2 "A. No.
3 "Q. Did you ever visit the company called Chemko in Slovakia?
4 "A. Did I ever visit them?
5 "Q. Yes.
6 "A. I visited many companies there.
7 "Q. Many companies in Slovakia?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. Were any of them called Chemko?
10 "A. I don't recall. It could be one of them, but I don't
11 recall.
12 "Q. It could be?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. Did you visit any chemical companies -- if you could
15 speak up because the Grand Jurors in the back are having
16 trouble.
17 "Did you visit any chemical companies when you were
18 in Slovakia?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. Okay. What chemical companies did you visit when you
21 went there?
22 "A. There was a company that produced Bitumin. It's the
23 scientific name for asphalt. It's used for roads.
24 "Q. Would that be B-I-T-U-M-I-N?
25 "A. B-I-T-U-M-I-N.
3247
1 "Q. And why did you want Bitumin, asphalt?
2 "A. For the company in Sudan.
3 "Q. Whose company in Sudan?
4 "A. Usama Bin Laden.
5 "Q. So Usama Bin Laden in Sudan wanted Bitumin or asphalt
6 and, therefore, you went to a chemical company in Slovakia?
7 "A. Right.
8 "Q. Do you recall when it was that you went to this chemical
9 company in Slovakia on behalf of Usama Bin Laden's company?
10 "A. I think in '93.
11 "Q. 1993?
12 "A. Maybe the end of '92 or around '92, '93.
13 "Q. And where were you living when you went to visit this
14 chemical company in Slovakia?
15 "A. Where did I stay there?
16 "Q. No, where were you living at the time?
17 "A. In Sudan.
18 "Q. In Sudan.
19 "And how many visits did you make to this chemical
20 company in Slovakia?
21 "A. I can't recall. Probably once or twice. I visited more
22 than one company checking their prices and their conditions.
23 "Q. Was it more than one chemical company?
24 "A. Right.
25 "Q. Okay. Approximately how many chemical companies did you
3248
1 visit in Slovakia?
2 "A. Five or six.
3 "Q. Did you visit any chemical companies outside of Slovakia?
4 "A. In Russia.
5 "Q. In Russia?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Where in Russia?
8 "A. Moscow and another city, I can't recall the name.
9 "Q. And how many chemical companies did you visit in Moscow?
10 "A. Three or four.
11 "Q. And where was the other city in Russia?
12 "A. I think south of Moscow, to the south of little bit.
13 "Q. Did you travel by train, plane or car?
14 "A. Train.
15 "Q. How long a train ride was it from Moscow to the other
16 Russian city?
17 "A. It was about 36 hours.
18 "Q. And did you make any purchases in Moscow or the other
19 Russian city of chemicals?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. Did you obtain information about what the prices were for
22 the chemicals?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. And who did you give the information to?
25 "A. To the company.
3249
1 "Q. And who at the company did you give the information to,
2 what person?
3 "A. I think it was Abu Fadhl.
4 "Q. Abu Fadhl al Makkee, the fellow in Saudi Arabia?
5 "A. Right.
6 "Q. And did you make any purchases of chemicals when you were
7 in Slovakia?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. Did you obtain information about the prices of chemicals
10 when you were in Slovakia?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. And what did you do with the information?
13 "A. The same thing, I gave it to Abu Fadhl.
14 "Q. Abu Fadhl?
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. And what year did you visit Russia?
17 "A. '92.
18 "Q. And did you visit Moscow or any other city on the same
19 trip?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. How many times have you been to Russia?
22 "A. Twice.
23 "Q. When was the other time that you went to Russia?
24 "A. Probably in '93. It could be the end of '92, but maybe
25 in '93.
3250
1 "Q. And what was the reason for the other trip you made to
2 Russia?
3 "A. Same thing, for purchasing things.
4 "Q. Chemicals?
5 "A. Chemicals and other equipment. I purchased trucks there.
6 "Q. So trucks and chemicals?
7 "A. Well, Bitumin is manufactured by chemical companies.
8 "Q. Did you purchase any other chemicals?
9 "A. No.
10 "Q. Did you ask about the prices of any other chemicals?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. The company that you purchased or were interested in
13 finding information for, was that Al Hijra Construction?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. And Al Hijra Construction was a company owned by Usama
16 Bin Laden in Sudan, correct?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. And that was building a road going from Khartoum to Port
19 Sudan, correct?
20 "A. Right.
21 "Q. Is that called the Challenge Road?
22 "A. Right.
23 "Q. When you build those roads, you not only need Bitumin to
24 build the ground, you also need explosives to clear the path
25 for the road, correct?
3251
1 "A. I guess so.
2 "Q. You guess so?
3 "A. Yes.
4 "Q. You're aware that they need Bitumin, but you're guessing
5 that they need explosives; is that your testimony?
6 "A. I was asked to bring Bitumin. I was never asked to find
7 out anything about explosives.
8 "Q. So when you went to Slovakia and Russia on behalf of Al
9 Hijra Construction, you confined yourself to looking for
10 Bitumin, but not explosives, is that your testimony?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. Did they ask you to look for any other chemicals besides
13 Bitumin, any other chemical products?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. Do you know if Chemko, the name on Grand Jury Exhibit 67
16 and 68, was the name of any of the companies you visited in
17 Slovakia?
18 "A. It's possible. I can't recall for sure.
19 "Q. It's possible that you did visit Chemko in Slovakia?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. Do you know if you called those phone numbers listed in
22 the lower right corner of Grand Jury Exhibits 67 and 68?
23 "A. No.
24 "Q. No, you didn't, or no, you don't know?
25 "A. I don't know.
3252
1 "Q. Do you know of any reason why you would need nitric acid
2 on behalf of your business dealings?
3 "A. No.
4 "Q. Are you aware that nitric acid can be used in the
5 manufacture of explosives?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Were you ever asked by anyone to find out information on
8 nitric acid?
9 "A. Was I ever asked?
10 "Q. Yes.
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. Do you know any reason why you would need to find out
13 information about DAM, D-A-M, 390?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. Are you aware DAM 390 is a liquid nitrogenous fertilizer
16 which is a mixture of ammonium nitric and urea solutions?
17 "A. Am I aware of what?
18 "Q. Are you aware that that is what DAM 390 is?
19 "A. No, it's the first time I heard this name.
20 "Q. First time.
21 "Did you have any reason in your business to acquire
22 anything that was made from nitrogenous fertilizer or urea
23 compounds?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. Why did you need to acquire nitrogenous fertilizer and
3253
1 urea compounds in your business?
2 "A. For the agricultural company.
3 "Q. Okay. What agricultural company was that?
4 "A. I don't remember the name.
5 "Q. Would it be Al Themar Al Mubaraka, A-L T-H-E-M-A-R A-L
6 M-U-B-A-R-A-K-A?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. Is that the correct spelling?
9 "A. Right.
10 "Q. Does that mean blessed fruit?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. And Themar Al Mubaraka was owned by Usama Bin Laden,
13 correct?
14 "A. Correct.
15 "Q. And did he send you to obtain fertilizer compounds on
16 behalf of that company?
17 "A. That's true.
18 "Q. In what countries did Usama Bin Laden send you to obtain
19 those compounds?
20 "A. Same countries, Russia and Slovakia.
21 "Q. Was that on the same trip or different trips?
22 "A. Same trip.
23 "Q. So now you're on the trip looking for Bitumin and
24 nitrogenous fertilizer and urea, but not explosives?
25 "A. Right.
3254
1 "Q. Anything else you recall you were looking for in those
2 trips besides Bitumin, nitrogenous fertilizer, urea and
3 trucks?
4 "A. Tractors.
5 "Q. Tractors?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Anything else?
8 "A. I can't recall.
9 "Q. When you went to Slovakia while you were living in Kenya,
10 did you go back to the same companies you went to on your
11 prior visit?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. Did that include going to some of the chemical companies
14 you had visited?
15 "A. No.
16 "Q. Did you make any efforts on the trip to Slovakia while
17 you lived in Kenya to obtain Bitumin?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Did you make any efforts to obtain fertilizer or urea?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. Did you make any efforts to obtain any chemicals when you
22 went on your trip to Slovakia from Kenya?
23 "A. No.
24 "Q. How many trips total did you make to Slovakia?
25 "A. Altogether?
3255
1 "Q. Yes.
2 "A. I think four. Four trips.
3 "Q. Why don't you tell the Grand Jury what years you made the
4 trips to Slovakia.
5 "A. What years? '92 and '93, I think twice in '93. And the
6 one that I was in Kenya, either the end of '94 or in '95.
7 "Q. And was the sole purpose of your trip while you were in
8 Kenya in '94 and '95 to get tractor parts?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. Did you visit any chemical companies on that trip?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. The trips you made in '92, the one trip you made in 1992,
13 what was the purpose of that trip?
14 "A. For the Bitumin, trucks and tractors.
15 "Q. How about the nitrogenous fertilizer, ammonium nitrate
16 and urea, did you look for any of that on your trip in 1992?
17 "A. In '92, I can't recall, but I'm sure it was on the second
18 trip.
19 "Q. The second trip would be the first trip in 1993?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. And you went looking for ammonium nitrate?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. Did you look for urea?
24 "A. Urea, right.
25 "Q. And what else did you look for on that trip?
3256
1 "A. Also Bitumin, and I visited the tractor's factory.
2 "Q. How about the second trip in 1993, what were you looking
3 for?
4 "A. That was the second trip.
5 "Q. The third trip, tell us about the third trip, what your
6 purpose was?
7 "A. It was mainly for the tractors and tractor parts.
8 "Q. It was mainly for tractor and tractor parts.
9 "Was there anything else you were looking for on the
10 third trip?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. Had you ever visited any chemical companies outside of
13 Slovakia or Russia?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. Have you ever visited any chemical companies in Sudan?
16 "A. No.
17 "Q. Are you aware of any companies that manufacture chemicals
18 in Sudan?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. Do you know a person by the name of Abu H-a-j-e-r A-l
21 I-r-a-q-u-i.
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. And what did Abu Hajer al Iraqui do for a living?
24 "A. He was the president for one of the companies, Wadi al
25 Aqiq?
3257
1 "Q. Which company? Wadi al Aqiq; is that correct?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. And you also worked for Wadi al Aqiq?
4 "A. Right.
5 "Q. Did you report to Abu Hajer?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. In what years did you report to Abu Hajer?
8 "A. What years? I think the end of '92 and '93.
9 "Q. And were you reporting to Abu Hajer al Iraqui at the time
10 you were wake making the trips to Slovakia and Russia to
11 obtain tractors, Bitumin, and at times nitrogenous fertilizer?
12 "A. Right.
13 "Q. When was the last time you spoke to Abu Hajer al Iraqui?
14 "A. '94.
15 "Q. Where were you?
16 "A. Before I left Sudan.
17 "Q. Once you left Sudan, did you ever see Abu Hajer again in
18 person?
19 "A. I don't recall seeing him anywhere.
20 "Q. Did you ever see Abu Hajer in Kenya?
21 "A. No.
22 "Q. Did you ever speak to Abu Hajer by telephone after you
23 left Kenya, after you left Sudan Kenya in 1994?
24 "A. Yes, I did.
25 "Q. How often?
3258
1 "A. I can't -- I don't recall. I probably talked to him two,
2 three times.
3 "Q. And what was the reason for your conversation with Abu
4 Hajer al Iraqui after you left Sudan?
5 "A. Just discussing a few things that I was doing in Sudan
6 and the companies.
7 "Q. Did you conduct any business with Abu Hajer after you
8 left Sudan in 1994?
9 "A. No. Other than these things, he was calling me to ask
10 about a few things after I left Sudan.
11 "Q. Like what?
12 "A. Different things that we did in Sudan with those
13 companies, whether it was the construction company or the
14 agricultural company.
15 "Q. Did he ever talk to you about your efforts to obtain
16 fertilizer, ammonium nitrate or chemicals on behalf of the
17 Usama Bin Laden companies once you left Sudan?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Do you know where Abu Hajer is now?
20 "A. No, I don't.
21 "Q. When you went to Slovakia, while you were living in the
22 Sudan, were you in touch with Abu Hajer about that trip?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. And what was your discussion with Abu Hajer about that
25 trip?
3259
1 "A. Over the phone.
2 "Q. Over the phone.
3 "And why did you contact him?
4 "A. Well, whenever I called the office, it's either him or
5 Abu Fadhl is there, so I talked to anyone who answers.
6 "Q. When you went to Slovakia in or about 1994 while you were
7 living in Kenya, were you reporting to Abu Hajer about that
8 trip?
9 "A. When I was in Kenya?
10 "Q. While you were living in Kenya and you took a trip to
11 Slovakia concerning tractor parts, were you reporting to Abu
12 Hajer about that business you were conducting?
13 "A. No, I think I was reporting to Abu Fadhl.
14 "Q. When you came to America in 1997 after your house had
15 been searched in Kenya, did you talk to anyone in America
16 about that search who told you that they were calling on
17 behalf of Usama Bin Laden?
18 "A. Who had been calling?
19 "Q. Did anyone call you and say they wanted to know how you
20 were doing because Usama Bin Laden was concerned about you,
21 Wadih El Hage?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. Have you sent a message back to Usama Bin Laden to
24 discuss the fact that your house was searched in Kenya at this
25 time?
3260
1 "A. No.
2 "Q. Have you sent a message back to Usama Bin Laden or anyone
3 who knows him about the fact that you were subpoenaed to the
4 Grand Jury?
5 "A. No. I didn't send anything since I came back.
6 "Q. When you went to Sacramento last week, who did you visit?
7 "A. My mother and sister.
8 "Q. Did you make an attempt to visit anyone else while you
9 were out there?
10 "A. On the way back I visited a friend of mine.
11 "Q. Your friend lives where that you visited?
12 "A. Los Angeles.
13 "Q. Who was that friend?
14 "A. Musalam.
15 "Q. Would you spell that for the court reporter?
16 "A. M-U-S-A-L-A-M.
17 "Q. Did you attempt to visit anyone besides your sister who
18 lived in Sacramento or in the Sacramento area?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. Did you try to contact anyone by telephone besides your
21 sister, who lived in Sacramento or the Sacramento area?
22 "A. When I was in Sacramento, no.
23 "Q. While you were you were living in Kenya -- strike that.
24 "You told us before that you didn't know anyone by
25 the name of Jalal except for one person from Louisiana a long
3261
1 time ago; is that correct?
2 "A. Right.
3 "Q. Let me show you what has been premarked as Government
4 Exhibit or Grand Jury Exhibit 43 with today's date, 9/16/98.
5 "The document says, "I, A-S-H-I-F Mohamed,
6 M-O-H-A-M-E-D, J-U-M-A, have borrowed an amount of 9 million
7 Tanzania shillings from Mohamed K-A-R-A-M-A through Jalal
8 F-U-A-D for the purpose of paying off the loan of my bus.
9 This amount will be paid to Mohamed Karama or whoever he
10 appoints as soon as possible." And then it's giving a date,
11 which appears to be written as April 29, 1997, and the witness
12 is Wadih El Hage and there's a signature.
13 "Do you recognize that signature?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. Is that your signature?
16 "A. That's my signature.
17 "Q. Okay. So you witnessed a loan transaction involving
18 Ashif Mohamed Juma from Mohamed Karama through Jalal Fuad.
19 "Now, Ashif Mohamed Juma, is that the brother of the
20 person you identified before?
21 "A. Right.
22 "Q. That would be Grand Jury Exhibit 2, and I'll just make
23 that plain for the record.
24 "Showing you Grand Jury Exhibit 2, Ashif Mohamed Juma
25 is the brother of the person in that picture, correct?
3262
1 "A. Correct.
2 "Q. Mohamed Karama is a person you know, correct?
3 "A. Correct."
4
5 (Continued on next page)
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3263
1 "Q. He used to stay in your house, correct?
2 "A. That's true.
3 "Q. Okay. You're on the document. Who is Jalal Fuad?
4 "A. I don't know.
5 "Q. Where were you when this document was signed?
6 "A. April 29 I think I was in Kenya. I was in Nairobi.
7 "Q. Is Jalal Fuad another name for Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri?
8 "A. I don't know.
9 "Q. While you were in Kenya were you involved in the fishing
10 business?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. Were you involved with any business involving boats?
13 "A. No.
14 "Q. Did you ever own a boat?
15 "A. No.
16 "Q. Did you ever finance a boat?
17 "A. No.
18 "Q. Let me show you a document marked Government Exhibit 46
19 signed by Mohamed Karama written to the district fisheries
20 officer. Have you seen that document before?
21 "A. No, I haven't.
22 "Q. Mohammed Karama lived in your home?
23 "A. Right.
24 "Q. And here he says: I hereby apply to appoint Mr. Mohamed
25 O-L-I-D-E-H as agent to handle his boat.
3264
1 Do you see that, sir?
2 "A. Yes, I do.
3 "Q. I showed you a document earlier today, Grand Jury Exhibit
4 60, which you said you did not recognize, correct?
5 "A. Right.
6 "Q. If you look from the shipping from your name, Wadih El
7 Hage, it goes to Mohamed Odeh or N. Karama, correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 "Q. If you noticed the way Odeh is written the U looks lick
10 LI so Mohamed Odeh could be also be read to say Mohammed
11 O-L-I-D-E-H?
12 "A. Possible.
13 "Q. Possible?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. So your name, Wadih El Hage, is on Grand Jury Exhibit 60,
16 Karama lives in your house, but you don't know Mohammed Odeh,
17 correct, that's your testimony?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. This document, Grand Jury Exhibit 46 Mohammed Karama's
20 stationery with the name Mohamed Odeh, you don't recognize
21 that document either, that's your testimony?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. Were you aware that Mohammed Odeh had a boat in Mombasa,
24 Kenya?
25 "A. I don't know Mohammed Odeh.
3265
1 "Q. Did you ever go to a wedding in Mombasa, Kenya?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. Whose wedding was it?
4 "A. One Kenyan friend of mine, friend of us.
5 "Q. Was this Kenyan friend a man or a woman?
6 "A. A man.
7 "Q. Kenyan man?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. What was his name?
10 "A. I can't recall. I didn't know the guy. I just went to
11 it with Harun Fazal. He told me let's go for a wedding and we
12 went.
13 Q. So Harun Fazal says, let's go for a wedding?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. And you went to the wedding of someone you did not know?
16 "A. Correct.
17 "Q. Who did the man marry?
18 "A. Another Kenyan lady.
19 "Q. Did you know the woman?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. Did your wife know the woman?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. Is that the only wedding you went to in Mombasa?
24 "A. Yes, that's the only one in Mombasa.
25 "Q. What year was it?
3266
1 "A. I think when I first got there in '94.
2 "Q. You mentioned you went to three or four weddings in Kenya
3 in Mombasa. Where were the other weddings?
4 "A. In Nairobi.
5 "Q. And what were the names of the men who got married?
6 "A. I can't recall the names.
7 "Q. Let me show you what's been marked as Government Exhibits
8 39 and 39-T with today's date, and so we're clear, 39 is an
9 Arabic document. 39-T is a translation.
10 I ask you if you recognize Grand Jury Exhibit 39?
11 "A. I don't recall seeing this.
12 "Q. Okay. Have you ever seen to your knowledge Government
13 Exhibit 39-T?
14 "A. This one?
15 "Q. Yes.
16 "A. No.
17 "Q. Are you aware that the document before you, Government
18 Exhibit 39, after an Islamic greeting says: To brother Wadih,
19 correct?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. Do you know any other brother Wadih's in Kenya?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. You're aware that at the bottom of the document it's
24 signed Harun, correct?
25 "A. Yes.
3267
1 "Q. Harun lived with you in Kenya, correct?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. It's dated March 13, 1997, correct?
4 "A. Yes.
5 "Q. You lived in Kenya in March of 1997, correct?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. But you don't ever recall seeing this letter written from
8 Harun to your name?
9 "A. No.
10 "Q. Now, you've told this jury you do not know who Nawawi is,
11 correct?
12 "A. No.
13 "Q. If you look in the Arabic does this letter not say
14 finally, brother Nawawi has sent me a fax and he sends us his
15 regards. His old fax number has been changed. His new fax
16 number is 407-658-63771.
17 And before you answer the next question, I'll tell
18 you that the area code 407 is located in Florida.
19 Now, can you tell the grand jury how it is that if
20 you do not know who that is, if you do not know anyone in
21 Florida, why is it that a year ago Harun is writing you that
22 brother Nawawi sends us Wadih El Hage his regards and tells
23 you his change in phone number?
24 "A. I have no idea.
25 "Q. You have no idea?
3268
1 "A. No.
2 "Q. Brother Nawawi would not be a friend of Usama Bin Laden
3 living in Florida, would he?
4 "A. I wouldn't know.
5 "Q. You wouldn't know.
6 By the way, if you look at the same document,
7 Government Exhibit, Grand Jury Exhibit 39, in the middle it
8 says. If Abu Mohammed comes to you don't forget to give him
9 everything that concerns our work.
10 Do you know who Abu Mohammed is?
11 "A. Abu Mohammed? No.
12 "Q. Do you know what your work is that Harun is writing to
13 you about?
14 "A. No, I don't because I do not recognize this whole thing.
15 I don't know what he's referring to.
16 "Q. Let me show you what's been marked as Grand Jury Exhibit
17 36 with today's date, and ask you if you recognize this
18 document. It's a handwritten Arabic document.
19 "A. I have never seen this before.
20 "Q. You have never seen it before?
21 "A. No.
22 "Q. Do you recognize the handwriting on that document?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. Whose handwriting?
25 "A. It's very close to mine.
3269
1 "Q. It's very close to yours?
2 "A. Right.
3 "Q. And could it be your handwriting?
4 "A. No, it couldn't be mine.
5 "Q. It's not your handwriting?
6 "A. It's not mine.
7 "Q. That's your testimony under oath?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. If you look at the bottom does the letter end in the
10 greeting, your brother Wadih?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. And that would be your name, correct?
13 "A. Correct.
14 "Q. Underneath your brother Wadih, does it say note: If you
15 get an answer by tomorrow, please call me at mobile
16 254-7120-2319?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. Is that the phone number that you used for your mobile
19 phone while you were in Kenya?
20 "A. Yes. But Harun used to have my number when I was out of
21 town.
22 Q. So what you're saying is that the handwriting looks like
23 your handwriting, correct?
24 "A. Very close.
25 "Q. Very close. The name is yours, correct?
3270
1 "A. Yes.
2 "Q. And the phone number is yours, correct?
3 "A. Yes.
4 "Q. And you're telling this grand jury under oath that you
5 didn't write this?
6 "A. I did not write this.
7 "Q. Now, it says at the top dear Abu Badir?
8 "A. I can't read that. It's not clear.
9 "Q. Okay. We'll leave this.
10 By the way, 36 is one of the documents not in a
11 plastic envelope. We'll leave it in the form it is now.
12 If I tell you that the better copy says: Dear Abu
13 Badir, Abu Badir would be the name of the husband of your
14 sister-in-law, correct?
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. Do you recognize the text of that letter in any way,
17 shape or form? Did you write this letter?
18 "A. No, I didn't.
19 "Q. Do you know what it means when it says, concerning the
20 group, I'll have them stay here until I get back so their
21 color gets just like the locals, and they would get used to
22 the rough African life?
23 "A. I don't know what does it mean.
24 "Q. Could it be that you were trying to get Usama Bin Laden's
25 group into Kenya so that they could blend in and fit in with
3271
1 the rest of the people?
2 "A. I don't know what's meant by it.
3 "Q. Because you didn't write it?
4 "A. Because I didn't write it.
5 "Q. All right. Let's move on to another exhibit.
6 Let me show you what's been marked as Grand Jury
7 Exhibit 38 and Grand Jury Exhibit 38-T. 38 is a copy of an
8 Arabic document. 38-T is the transcript.
9 Do you recognize that document?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. And do you recognize the handwriting on that document?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. What do you recognize about the handwriting?
14 "A. It's very close to mine.
15 "Q. Very close to yours.
16 "A. Right.
17 "Q. But your testimony is that it is not your handwriting?
18 "A. That's not my handwriting.
19 "Q. And you'll agree with me it's written at the bottom and
20 signed Wadih?
21 "A. Yes, it's written.
22 "Q. And it's spelled the way you spell your name?
23 "A. Yes, the same spelling.
24 "Q. And it's signed the way you signed your name?
25 "A. No, that's not my signature.
3272
1 "Q. Does it look like your signature?
2 "A. Well, I sign my first and last names always.
3 "Q. Does the first name Wadih, is it signed the way you sign
4 your first name Wadih?
5 "A. It's very close.
6 "Q. Very close, but you did not write this document?
7 "A. I did not write this document.
8 "Q. Or to be clear, you didn't write the document of which
9 this is a copy of?
10 "A. Right.
11 "Q. And it says: Dear Abu Suliman at the top. Do you know
12 who Abu Suliman is?
13 "A. No.
14 "Q. Sir, you understand, do you not, that the focus of this
15 grand jury investigation includes all the people who may have
16 been involved in the murder of more than two hundred fifty
17 people? Do you understand that?
18 "A. This grand jury?
19 "Q. Is focusing on the bombing of the US Embassy in Nairobi
20 which involved the murder of more than 250 people.
21 Do you understand that?
22 "A. I do.
23 "Q. So you understand that anything you lie about is very
24 important to this grand jury because they need to know every
25 fact about the people who may have been involved?
3273
1 "A. I do.
2 "Q. Let me approach you with what's been marked as Grand Jury
3 Exhibit 37 and Grand Jury Exhibit 37-T of today's date, 37
4 being a copy of an Arabic document.
5 The exhibits 36, 37, 38, and 39 are all copies with
6 the original Grand Jury Exhibit stickers on them. They're not
7 in plastic envelopes as opposed to the other exhibits. 37-T
8 is the translation.
9 Why don't you look at Grand Jury Exhibit 37 and see
10 if you recognize that. Do you recognize that document?
11 "A. No. It's the first time I see it.
12 "Q. You have never seen that before?
13 "A. No.
14 "Q. And in looking at 37-T do you see that that is also
15 addressed to brother Abu Suliman?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. Now, is that printed on some form of computer?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. That's not handwriting, correct?
20 "A. That's not handwriting.
21 "Q. And is it signed at the bottom, is it signed at the
22 bottom?
23 "A. No, I don't see any signature.
24 "Q. From the text of the letter can you figure out who would
25 have written it?
3274
1 "A. It might be Harun.
2 "Q. And why might it be Harun?
3 "A. Because there's mistakes in the Arabic language.
4 "Q. Harun isn't the best Arabic speaker, I take it?
5 "A. Yes, he's not.
6 "Q. If you also look at the middle of the letter does the
7 letter discuss L-U-K-M-A-N and I-S-Y-A?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. And Lukman and Isya are the name of Harun's son and
10 daughter?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. And does it say right after that, that me and their
13 mother are doing well?
14 "A. Right.
15 "Q. Would that lead to you believe that Harun wrote this
16 letter?
17 "A. That's true.
18 "Q. And does the next sentence say that Wadih's family is
19 doing well?
20 "A. Right.
21 "Q. Now, in this letter written to Abu Suliman apparently by
22 Harun, do you know who Abu Suliman is?
23 "A. No.
24 "Q. In that letter does it say near the top of the letter
25 that from time to time the magazines here often mention your
3275
1 peer who's gone?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. Do you understand that to be a reference to Abu Ubaidah
4 al Banshiri who drowned?
5 "A. I don't know.
6 "Q. Do you see below that it says, the fish people are doing
7 all right. Do you understand who the fish people are?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. It wouldn't be Mohammed Odeh and the fishing boat, would
10 it?
11 "A. I don't think so.
12 "Q. If you continue on it says that Wadih went on a trip. He
13 is in Taysir. Do you see that?
14 "A. Yes.
15 Q. It says he called me from over there. Do you see that?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. I personally called Taysir and their patience is very
18 comforting. Do you see that?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. They are doing well and in good health. Do you see that?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. They live in their old town, M-A-S-J-I-D AL N-U-R
23 H-A-Y-A-T. Do you see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 "Q. Now, is that a reference to a mosque when it refers to a
3276
1 Masjid?
2 "A. Yes, a Masjid he means mosque.
3 "Q. Masjid al Nur is that a mosque in H-A-Y-A-T-A-B-A-D?
4 "A. I don't know.
5 "Q. Have you ever been to the Masjid al Nur?
6 "A. There is a Masjid al Nur here in, where is it, in
7 California?
8 "Q. When this letter was written by Harun to Abu Suliman he's
9 telling people that you have taken a trip or Taysir. Where
10 did you go and who is Taysir?
11 "A. I don't know what he's talking about.
12 "Q. Well, Harun Fazal works for you, correct?
13 "A. Correct.
14 "Q. He lives with you, correct?
15 "A. Correct.
16 "Q. He uses your computer, correct?
17 "A. Correct.
18 "Q. He knows you quite well, correct?
19 "A. Correct.
20 "Q. He's telling someone that you're on a trip, correct?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. He tells someone that you went with Taysir and you called
23 back from wherever you were, correct?
24 "A. That's what he is saying. See, all these things I
25 believe that Harun probably wrote all these things, and I
3277
1 don't know anything about it. Either he used my computer or
2 he tried to write just like me.
3 "Q. I see. So now Harun is counterfeiting letters from you?
4 "A. Apparently. It's the first time I see these things. And
5 from seeing these letters written by computer, it seems that
6 he was using my name for these things.
7 "Q. Can you tell the grand jury why it is that Harun Fazal
8 would spend his day counterfeiting letters with your name on?
9 A. I never knew.
10 "Q. Do you have any idea as you sit here today who Taysir
11 might be?
12 "A. I can't recall.
13 "Q. Would it be that Taysir is Abu Hafs, Usama Bin Laden's
14 military commander whom you went to visit in Pakistan?
15 "A. If I saw Abu Hafs, I don't know, but whether I visited
16 him or not, I have seen him in Sudan, that's all.
17 "Q. While you were living in Kenya and you knew Harun, did
18 you have occasion to visit Abu Hafs anywhere in the world?
19 "A. No, I haven't seen him since Sudan.
20 "Q. Did you ever tell Harun that you went to visit Abu Hafs
21 anywhere in the world?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. Did you ever tell Harun that you saw Abu Hafs anywhere in
24 the world?
25 "A. No.
3278
1 "Q. Did you ever tell Harun that you went to visit Taysir
2 anywhere in the world?
3 "A. No.
4 "Q. Did you ever tell Harun Fazal that you saw Taysir
5 anywhere in the world?
6 "A. No.
7 "Q. As you sit here today, it remains your testimony that you
8 have no idea who Taysir is?
9 "A. I have no idea, no.
10 "Q. The letter continues it says: Your peer, T-A-L-A-L is
11 well. Do you know who Talal is?
12 "A. I remember the name. I can't recall who's that.
13 "Q. Okay. We'll continue.
14 Let me show you Grand Jury Exhibit 40 with today's
15 date. Once again, it is a copy of a handwritten Arabic
16 document and 40-T is the translation. Have you seen the
17 document of which Grand Jury Exhibit 40 is a copy?
18 "A. No. I have never seen it before.
19 "Q. Can you make out that it's signed at the bottom Abu
20 Suliman?
21 "A. I can't see it.
22 "Q. Okay. What's the last word you can read on the page?
23 "A. My name to answer me.
24 "Q. So you see that whoever wrote this document is saying
25 Wadih, I am still waiting on you and give me an answer,
3279
1 correct?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. It's your testimony, however, that you don't recall
4 seeing this document before?
5 "A. No, never.
6 "Q. I ask you read the top of the letter it goes on to say
7 eminent brothers, peace and his blessing upon you?
8 "A. Correct.
9 "Q. Continue, what is the news and how are things?
10 "A. Yes.
11 "Q. Does it in -- did you receive my letter which I sent you
12 from Egypt?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. Does the next sentence say, how's Taysir doing and his
15 older brother?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. I want to know how his older brother doing because the
18 enemies here want to grab him just like what they did to the
19 others in the east.
20 "A. Yes. It says that.
21 "Q. Does it say, please tell him to be cautious?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. Does it cite to a phrase in the Koran that says "and you
24 must be cautious"?
25 "A. Yes.
3280
1 "Q. Does it say then, Wadih, I am still waiting on you to
2 give me an answer for what I requested of you?
3 "A. I think it says that.
4 "Q. Now, this letter obviously was written to a Wadih,
5 correct?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Do you recall receiving this letter?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. Do you recall people sending you a message asking how
10 Taysir was doing?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. Do you recall trying to find out how Taysir and his older
13 brother were doing?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. Would his older brother be coded reference to Usama Bin
16 Laden?
17 "A. It's possible.
18 "Q. It's possible. Have you ever heard of Usama Bin Laden
19 referred to as Taysir's older brother?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. If I told you that the bottom of the document is signed
22 once again Abu Suliman with a phone number, 407-658-6371 the
23 same number in Florida referred to in the prior document,
24 would that refresh your recollection as to whether you've ever
25 seen this document before?
3281
1 "A. I don't recall seeing this document before.
2 "Q. Do you know anyone in Florida who was sending you
3 messages at any time in your entire life?
4 "A. Entire life? I have a friend. He used to be in school
5 with me in Louisiana. He lives in Florida right now.
6 "Q. What's his name?
7 "A. Ali. I don't remember the last name.
8 "Q. What, Ali you said?
9 "A. Ali.
10 "Q. What nationality is he?
11 "A. He's Palestinian.
12 "Q. And how old is he?
13 "A. Right now?
14 "Q. Yes?
15 "A. About 37. 35, 37.
16 "Q. And he's a Palestinian national. Where did he grow up?
17 "A. In Kuwait.
18 "Q. When did he leave Kuwait?
19 "A. I don't know.
20 "Q. When did you first meet him?
21 "A. In Louisiana.
22 "Q. In what year?
23 "A. '85.
24 "Q. And when did you last see him?
25 "A. I can't recall, but it was a long time. Over maybe
3282
1 five -- I did I '88 was last time I seen him.
2 "Q. 1988, ten years ago?
3 "A. Yes.
4 "Q. So far as you know, does this person Ali know Usama Bin
5 Laden?
6 "A. I don't think so.
7 "Q. As far as you know is this person Ali someone who would
8 have sent that letter to you?
9 "A. No.
10 "Q. Let me approach you with what has been marked as Grand
11 Jury Exhibit with today's date. It consists of two pages and
12 they are in a plastic envelope to preserve fingerprints and
13 one is mark page 69.
14 Page 1, is marked page 69, page 2. It's a fax, and
15 original fax.
16 If you can look at it, and see if you recognize it
17 and also take a look at the handwriting.
18 "A. Do you want me to read it?
19 "Q. Read it to yourself and take whatever you need to decide
20 whether this is something that you have seen before ever seen
21 before.
22 Do you recognize that document?
23 "A. No.
24 "Q. If you look at the bottom of the document I don't know
25 how good your eyes are, but I'll tell you something. That may
3283
1 help you refresh your recollection, which is that the time and
2 date stamp on the fax indicates that it was sent in February
3 of 1997. Okay?
4 I don't know if you can read that. But that may be
5 of help to you. It says, February 26, 1997 page 1 and page 2.
6 I'll also advise you so that you have full
7 information of which to decide whether you recognize the
8 document that is found with the other documents bearing your
9 name and with the phone bills you described that will be in
10 your files.
11 Does that help you recognize whether or not you have
12 seen Grand Jury Exhibit 69 page 1 or page 2 before?
13 "A. I don't recall seeing this.
14 "Q. Do you know who wrote it?
15 "A. It says Abu Suliman.
16 "Q. It says Abu Suliman. Okay.
17 Do you know Abu Suliman?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Do you know a person by the name of A-H-M-E-D? Do you
20 see Ahmed written?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. Do you see the Arabic handwriting underneath it?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. What does it say beneath Ahmed?
25 "A. T-A-W-H-I-L.
3284
1 "Q. Tawhil. Would that be Arabic for meaning the tall one?
2 "A. Right.
3 "Q. So when it says Ahmed with Tawhil that would be Ahmed the
4 tall one?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. That would be the Ahmed that ran Mercy International,
7 right?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. That would be the Ahmed to whom Harun wished to give your
10 files, correct?
11 "A. Correct.
12 "Q. Now, do you recognize the handwriting or printing on this
13 document?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. Now, if you look at the text in the paragraph where
16 Ahmed's name comes up, it says, give my S-A-L-A-M, correct?
17 "A. Correct.
18 "Q. And Salam in Arabic term is an Arabic term for the
19 greeting of peace, correct?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. It says give my Salam to Harun and my friend the
22 fishermen on the East Coast as well as Ahmed and Abu A-L
23 K-H-A-I-R, correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 "Q. So whoever wrote this is not Harun, correct?
3285
1 "A. Correct.
2 "Q. Who ever wrote this is not Ahmed the tall one from Mercy
3 International, the tall one, correct?
4 "A. Correct.
5 "Q. And whoever wrote it is not the fishermen on the East
6 Coast, correct?
7 "A. Correct.
8 "Q. It's Abu Suliman?
9 A. It seems to be.
10 "Q. That's his signature?
11 "A. Right.
12 "Q. Now, it says further above, at any rate, I am glad to
13 hear that the doctor is doing well and secure.
14 Do you know who the reference is to the doctor means?
15 Strike that. Do you know who they are referring to
16 when they talk about the doctor?
17 "A. I don't know.
18 "Q. Would that be Usama Bin Laden?
19 "A. I never heard anyone call him the doctor.
20 "Q. Have you ever heard him called the H-A-J-J? Have you
21 ever heard of Usama Bin Laden referred to as the hajj?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. Have you ever heard Usama Bin Laden referred to as the
24 director?
25 "A. Yes.
3286
1 "Q. Do you know who is referred to when it says that the
2 doctor is doing well?
3 "A. No.
4 "Q. The next paragraph says: Is there any way you could find
5 out if Abu Muaz Misrey is still in, A-B-U M-U-A-Z M-I-S-R-E-Y
6 is still in Z-U-U-L town.
7 Do you know who Abu Muaz Misrey is?
8 "A. I know who Abu Muaz Misrey is.
9 "Q. Who is that?
10 "A. A friend who lived in Sudan.
11 "Q. Where was this friend who lived in Sudan from?
12 "A. Egypt.
13 "Q. Egypt. And is Misrey a word meaning the Egyptian?
14 "A. Right.
15 "Q. And was he a friend of Usama Bin Laden as well?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. Do you know what Abu Muaz's real name is?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Do you know where he is today?
20 "A. No. I left him in Sudan. I don't know where is he.
21 "Q. Do you know what company he worked for?
22 "A. He didn't work for a company. He was in charge for the
23 library for Usama Bin Laden.
24 "Q. And what was in this library?
25 "A. Books.
3287
1 "Q. Books.
2 Were there files in the library?
3 "A. I don't recall seeing any files.
4 "Q. When you worked for Usama Bin Laden, did you enter into a
5 written contract with him?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Do you know if that contract went into a file?
8 "A. Did it go into a file?
9 Q. Yes.
10 "A. I believe so, yes.
11 "Q. Was the file --
12 "A. I had a copy of it.
13 "Q. Was the file maintained in the library?
14 "A. I don't know where they put the file.
15 "Q. Where was the file located?
16 I'm sorry. Where was the library located?
17 "A. It's in Khartoum.
18 "Q. Where in Khartoum?
19 "A. I can't recall. It's been a long time ago. I don't
20 recall where.
21 "Q. Where was it located in regard to your office?
22 "A. It was very far off.
23 "Q. Very far from your office?
24 "A. Yes. The office was in downtown and the library was in
25 the residential area.
3288
1 Q. What was the name of the residential area?
2 "A. What was the name? I can't recall.
3 "Q. Did Usama Bin Laden have people that lived near the
4 library?
5 "A. Everybody lived near the library.
6 "Q. Did you live near the library?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. What was the name of the area that you lived in where the
9 library was?
10 "A. That's what I was trying to remember. I can't recall
11 right now.
12 "Q. How far was it from your house to this library?
13 "A. About 15 minutes walk.
14 "Q. Did you ever go to the library?
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. Were there guards outside the library?
17 "A. No.
18 "Q. How did you get in?
19 "A. Knocked on the door.
20 "Q. Knocked on the door and who let you in?
21 "A. People who work there.
22 "Q. And what were their names?
23 "A. I remember Abu M-U-A-Z.
24 "Q. Did you ever see Abu Muaz outside of Sudan?
25 "A. In Pakistan.
3289
1 "Q. Where when in Pakistan?
2 "A. In the '80s, '86 probably '87.
3 "Q. Was he training to fight over in Afghanistan?
4 "A. I don't know. I don't think so. He is a big guy.
5 "Q. Why would a big guy not train to fight?
6 "A. He's fat.
7 "Q. He's fat, okay.
8 Do you know the name of the street that the library
9 was located on in the neighborhood you lived in?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. And what did you do when you got to library?
12 "A. Read some books.
13 "Q. And what were the books about?
14 "A. Different religious books.
15 "Q. Books about jihad?
16 "A. Some books about jihad, about everything subject in
17 Islam.
18 "Q. Continuing on, Grand Jury Exhibit 69, page 2. It also
19 says whether you could, whether someone could find out if Abu
20 Muaz is still in Zuul town. Where is Zuul town?
21 "A. I don't know.
22 "Q. The next sentence says, there's a dream that my beloved
23 brother Jalal, J-A-L-L-A-L, saw me a few days before his
24 passing away. Do you see that?
25 "A. Yes.
3290
1 "Q. Who is brother Jalal?
2 "A. I don't know who he refers to.
3 "Q. Could that be Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri?
4 "A. I don't know.
5 "Q. Could it be the guy you went to find out about at Lake
6 Victoria who drowned, brother Jalal?
7 "A. I don't think so.
8 "Q. It continues: Also, did you ever get the refunds for the
9 ticket I sent you? It's been seven months. Did you see that?
10 "A. Yes.
11 "Q. Do you know who it might have been that was sent the
12 ticket seven months ago that Abu Suliman wanted to get his
13 money from?
14 "A. I don't know what he's talking about.
15 "Q. Okay. Bear with me one moment.
16 Who is Abu A-L-K-H-A-I-R?
17 "A. He's a Yemeni guy who work at Mercy International.
18 "Q. A Yemeni guy that works at Mercy International?
19 A. Right.
20 "Q. What does he look like?
21 "A. He's fat. Big and fat.
22 "Q. Does he go by the name of F-A-H-A-D?
23 "A. Not that I know of.
24 "Q. How old is he?
25 "A. Probably 30.
3291
1 "Q. Probably 30?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. And he was born in Yemen?
4 "A. I don't know.
5 "Q. Do you know if he ever lived in Yemen?
6 "A. I believe so.
7 "Q. Do you know where in Yemen he lived?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. Do you know whether he was from the north or the south of
10 Yemen?
11 "A. I don't know really.
12 "Q. Do you know if he ever went to Afghanistan?
13 "A. No.
14 "Q. Now, sir, you don't know who this letter was written to,
15 but let me put in front of you Grand Jury Exhibit 40 from Abu
16 Suliman where he says:
17 Wadih, I am still waiting on you to give me an answer
18 for what I had requested from you, the ticket, et cetera, et
19 cetera. And then point to exhibit 69 page 2 which then says:
20 Lastly, did you ever get the refund for the ticket I
21 sent you. It's been seven months.
22 And I ask you whether or not Grand Jury Exhibit 69 is
23 a letter written to you from Abu Suliman?
24 "A. I said no.
25 "Q. You're sure? You're under oath?
3292
1 "A. Yes.
2 "Q. And you realize that all the people he asked to give
3 regards to are people you know, correct? You know Harun,
4 correct?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. And you know Ahmed T-A-W-H-I-L, the tall one?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. You know Abu al Kar from Yemen, correct?
9 "A. Right.
10 "Q. And so whoever it is that is writing from being written
11 to by Abu Suliman wants to make sure that a greeting is given
12 to those people, correct?
13 "A. It seems to be that.
14 "Q. Abu Suliman is not asking the person he wrote this letter
15 to, to give a greeting to Wadih, is he, in that paragraph?
16 "A. No.
17 "Q. You understand, sir, that the people involved in this are
18 being investigated for the bombing in Nairobi, correct?
19 "A. You just told me a while ago.
20 "Q. So you understand that if you lie about who it is that
21 these letters were sent to, who it is that wrote them or
22 whether or not you have seen them, you will frustrate what the
23 people in this room are trying to do, which is to try to
24 determine who played a role in the bombs in the embassy in
25 Nairobi and Tanzania? You understand that?
3293
1 "A. I do.
2 "Q. Is there any answer you wish to change or amend in any
3 way, shape or form?
4 "A. Well, I would say that apparently someone has been using
5 my name just to get those, whether faxes or letters, to get
6 them through to someone else.
7 "Q. So they've been using your name and --
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. -- and mimicking your handwriting, trying to copy your
10 handwriting?
11 "A. It seems like that.
12 "Q. And they have been writing letters to you and from you.
13 Is that your opinion?
14 "A. Yes, I was traveling most of the time, was out of my
15 office most of the time, out of Nairobi.
16 "Q. So someone seems to be using your name and your
17 handwriting to write letters to you and from you. Is that
18 your testimony?
19 "A. That's what I would figure out from seeing all these
20 letters.
21 "Q. Take your time and tell the grand jury why you think
22 people would do that?
23 "A. I have no idea.
24 "Q. Now, sir, you've not previously provided fingerprints to
25 the grand jury, have you?
3294
1 "A. No.
2 I would ask if the foreperson could direct that
3 Mr. El Hage provide a full set of fingerprints to the grand
4 jury.
5 THE FOREPERSON: So directed.
6 THE WITNESS: Sure.
7 "Q. Now, if it's okay with Mr. El Hage --
8 THE COURT: Let's stop now and we'll take a recess.
9 (Jury not present)
10 MR. FITZGERALD: I think there are four or five pages
11 left in the transcript.
12 THE COURT: The next order of business will be?
13 MR. FITZGERALD: Fingerprint expert. And we'll be
14 offering I think one or two exhibits before then which is
15 Government Exhibits 617 for which the Bates stamp number was
16 1B9/3-2-3A the phone records for 408-249-5637.
17 THE COURT: Very well. We'll take a brief recess.
18 (Recess)
19 (In open court; jury not present)
20 THE COURT: Defendants request to charge are due
21 today. Silence.
22 MR. COHN: I will be handing them up. I have them
23 here. I just want to serve the government, but I have them.
24
25
3295
1 (Jury present)
2 THE COURT: All right. We can resume with the
3 reading of the grand jury minutes.
4 (Resuming at page 55, line 2)
5 "Q. Now, if it's okay with Mr. El Hage and with the
6 foreperson we could arrange to have the FBI simply take your
7 fingerprints rather than bringing someone in here with a messy
8 ink pad and provide those fingerprints and forward it to the
9 grand jury, rather than have people watch you be
10 fingerprinted. Is that okay with you, sir?
11 "A. They do have my fingerprints.
12 "Q. Who has your fingerprints?
13 "A. The FBI.
14 "Q. Why do they have your fingerprints?
15 "A. I don't know. They took it several times.
16 "Q. When?
17 "A. Well, when I became a citizen and when I took my
18 passport. Several occasions.
19 "Q. Have you ever been arrested by the FBI?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. Just so you understand, sir, there's a thing called major
22 case prints which not only take your fingerprints, but they
23 take the sides of your hands, your palms, every ridge that is
24 exposed on your fingers so that the FBI can make a full
25 comparison of any documents which they decide to test for
3296
1 fingerprints, and those fingerprints that are provided for
2 passport purposes or for other purposes are not as good as
3 major case prints.
4 So having explained that, I would ask that you
5 provide your major case prints, and if it's agreeable with
6 you, we can arrange to have the FBI do it this afternoon,
7 provide the fingerprints to the grand jury rather than making
8 you return and be fingerprinted with an ink pad.
9 Is that agreeable with you, sir?
10 "A. That's okay with me.
11 "Q. Is that agreeable to the Forelady?
12 THE FOREPERSON: That's fine.
13 So what we will do is we will adjourn for today. If
14 I could ask the Forelady to remind the witness that he's still
15 under subpoena, so that if some questions should arise that we
16 wish to have Mr. El Hage appear again, we can invite him to
17 appear back without requiring the service of a subpoena.
18 THE FOREPERSON: I remind you that you are still
19 under subpoena.
20 "Q. If you could just step out of the room for a moment and
21 wait outside, I want to ask the grand jurors if they have any
22 questions besides the provision of the fingerprints.
23 "A. Sure.
24 (Witness excused)
25 (Time noted 3:20 o'clock p.m.)
3297
1 (Colloquy follows)
2 (Colloquy precedes)
3 (Time noted 3:23 o'clock p.m.)
4 (Witness resumed)
5 THE FOREPERSON: I remind you you're still under
6 oath.
7 "Q. The grand jury had a couple of quick questions one of
8 which is who funds the Mercy International relief agent in
9 Kenya?
10 "A. Some Saudi merchants in Saudi Arabia.
11 "Q. Merchants in Saudi Arabia?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. Does that include Usama Bin Laden?
14 "A. I don't think so. No. He might be, but I never knew
15 anything on that.
16 "Q. Has anyone ever indicated to you that Usama Bin Laden
17 funds Mercy International in any way, shape or form?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. What do you do for work currently?
20 "A. I work in a tire shop, wheels and tires.
21 "Q. And that's located in?
22 A. Fort Worth.
23 Q. Fort Worth, Texas?
24 "A. Texas.
25 "Q. Do you do any relief work in the United States?
3298
1 "A. Right now, no.
2 "Q. Have you done any relief work since your return from
3 Kenya in 1997?
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. When did you become a US citizen?
6 "A. '89.
7 "Q. And what passports do you have?
8 "A. American passport.
9 "Q. Do you have any other passports?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. Have you ever traveled on any passports other than a
12 United States passport once you became a citizen of the United
13 States in 1989?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. Have you ever traveled on a Sudanese passport?
16 "A. No.
17 "Q. Have you ever traveled on a counterfeit passport?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Have you ever traveled on a Kenyan passport?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. And your post office box 72239 in Nairobi, who had access
22 to that?
23 "A. When I wasn't there, it was Harun.
24 "Q. Was the only two people who had access yourself and
25 Harun?
3299
1 "A. If Harun wasn't there and I wasn't there, it was Mohammed
2 Karama.
3 "Q. Those are the three people that would have access to your
4 box?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. Do you recall either Harun or Mohammed Karama telling you
7 that there are letters appearing in your post office box
8 addressed to someone they don't know?
9 "A. No, they never did.
10 "Q. Did you ever see any letters addressed to a Wadih Norman
11 in your post office box?
12 "A. No.
13 "Q. Okay. If the foreperson would remind the witness that
14 his appearance is adjourned and he's under oath and I would
15 require him to provide the major case prints to the bureau, we
16 can adjourn for the day.
17 THE FOREPERSON: You're so directed.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
19 THE FOREPERSON: You may be excused.
20 (Witness excused)
21 (Time noted: 3:25 o'clock p.m.
22 (Colloquy follows.)
23 Certificate.
24 State of New York, County of New York.
25 I Tracy A. Thompson, CSR hereby certify that the
3300
1 foregoing is a true and accurate transcript to the best of my
2 skill and ability from my stenographic notes of this
3 proceeding.
4 Tracy Thompson. Acting grand jury reporter.
5 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, at this time the
6 government would offer in evidence Government Exhibit 617
7 marked Bates stamp number 1B93 slash 2-3A pursuant to the
8 stipulation regarding the search of the Mercy International
9 relief agency.
10 THE COURT: So received.
11 (Government's Exhibit 617 received in evidence)
12 MR. FITZGERALD: The government would also offer
13 Government Exhibit 368, the telephone numbers for the phone
14 number 408-249-5637.
15 THE COURT: Received.
16 (Government's Exhibit 368 received in evidence)
17 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time the government
18 recalls Mitchell Hollars.
19 THE COURT: Mr. Hollars, the Court reminds you you're
20 still under oath.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
22 MITCHELL HOLLARS, resumed.
23 DIRECT EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. KARAS:
25 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
3301
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. If you could just remind the jury what it is that you do,
3 sir?
4 A. I work for the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the
5 latent print unit which is in the laboratory division.
6 Q. I'm wondering maybe you can adjust the wireless mic there
7 to cut out some of the static perhaps.
8 If you can say again, what it is you do, sir?
9 A. I work for the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the
10 latent print unit which is in the laboratory division.
11 Q. Now, sir, did there come a time that you were asked to
12 examine documents that you were told were seized from the
13 Mercy International Relief Organization in Nairobi, Kenya?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And can you tell us whether or not you followed the same
16 protocol that you described earlier for processing latent
17 fingerprints?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. I'm going to approach, sir, with what has been marked for
20 identification as Government Exhibit 659 and ask you to take a
21 look at it.
22 So we're clear, sir, were you asked to analyze some
23 of the documents that you believe were seized from Mercy
24 International?
25 A. That's correct.
3302
1 Q. And after you completed your processing of these latent
2 fingerprints, can you tell us whether or not you prepared any
3 reports?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. And taking a look at Government Exhibit 659, can you tell
6 us what that is?
7 A. It's a summary of my results.
8 Q. The information that is on 659, did you compare that to
9 the report that you prepared after processing the exhibits?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. As well as any notes that you took?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Can you tell us whether or not the information that is
14 contained on 659 is accurate?
15 A. It is.
16 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer
17 Government Exhibit 659.
18 THE COURT: Received.
19 (Government's Exhibit 659 received in evidence)
20 Q. If we could, before we display 659, if we can just display
21 Government Exhibit 611 which is the first exhibit contained
22 within 659.
23 Is that one of the documents that you processed for
24 latent fingerprints, sir?
25 A. Yes.
3303
1 Q. If we could redisplay 659, please.
2 Now, sir, do you recall testifying about a summary
3 chart that related to other exhibits that you processed?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you tell us whether or not this chart follows the
6 format of the earlier charts that you testified about?
7 A. It does.
8 Q. The middle column there processes, can you just tell us
9 what that is, again?
10 A. The V stands for a visual examination, the L indicates a
11 laser or ultimate light source examination; DFO is the
12 fluorescent process for amino acids. The Ninhydrin is the
13 process that reacts with amino acids and develops the prints
14 in a visible line; and the PD represents the physical
15 developer process.
16 Q. And according to the chart there, Government Exhibit 611,
17 can you tell us the name of any individuals whose prints you
18 were able to identify?
19 A. Wadih El Hage.
20 Q. And with respect to the third row down there, Government
21 Exhibit 615 A, for the record if you can just tell us the
22 identification you made of that exhibit?
23 A. The individual?
24 Q. Yes, sir?
25 A. It's Wadih El Hage.
3304
1 Q. And the row below that, 624-I, Government Exhibit 624-I
2 for the record?
3 A. Wadih El Hage.
4 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time I ask if Mr.
5 Hollars can be allowed to step down from the witness stand.
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 (Witness left stand)
8 Q. Now, Mr. Hollars, I presented to you what has been marked
9 for identification as Government Exhibit 615 A-LP. If you can
10 just tell us what that is?
11 A. It's a chart enlargement. One chart represents the latent
12 print that was developed on the facsimile copy. The other
13 represents the corresponding area of the inked fingerprint
14 that appears on the fingerprint card bearing the name of Wadih
15 El Hage.
16 Q. And did you prepare that enlargement?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer
19 Government Exhibit 615 A-LP.
20 THE COURT: Received.
21 (Government's Exhibit 615 A-LP received in evidence)
22 Q. Sir, if you could demonstrate to the jury the
23 identification you made of Government Exhibit 615-A as being,
24 as containing a fingerprint from Wadih El Hage?
25 A. Sure. The chart on your right represents the latent print
3305
1 that was developed on the facsimile copy. The chart on your
2 left represents the corresponding area of the inked
3 fingerprint that appears on the fingerprint card bearing the
4 name of Wadih El Hage.
5 The black lines represent the friction ridges that's
6 pressed upon the fingers. The white lines are the spaces
7 between those friction ridge. The red lines and numbers are
8 placed there by me to represent some of the corresponding
9 characteristics that are present in these two prints.
10 The comparison process you first analyze the friction
11 ridge detail taking note of ridge flow, ridge structure, ridge
12 direction, for instance, if there is a pattern present. In
13 this particular print happens to be a left loped looped loop,
14 so you compare a left loped loop with a left loped loop.
15 Once you find two left loped loops then you locate
16 characteristics that are present in one of the prints taking
17 into consideration the unit relationship to that print or that
18 point has that characteristic has with the other
19 characteristics that are present and locate those same
20 characteristics in the second print.
21 In order for these two prints to have been made by
22 the same individual the same characteristics and the same unit
23 relationship have to be present in the two charts.
24 Beginning with the chart marked latent fingerprint,
25 in the upper center of the chart ends in a ridge which is
3306
1 marked point number 1. Continuing, crossing four ridges to
2 the fifth ridge, is a dividing ridge which is marked as point
3 number 2. From point number 2 moving downward across three
4 ridges or four ridges is a ridge that ends which is marked as
5 point number 3.
6 Moving to the inked fingerprint, the same
7 characteristics in the same unit relationship should appear in
8 the inked fingerprint. In the upper center there is a ridge
9 that ends which is marked as point number 1. Moving downward
10 across the five ridges we have a ridge, the fifth ridge, the
11 ridge that divides into two ridges which is mark as point
12 number 2.
13 From point number 2 moving downward across four
14 ridges is a ridge that ends which is marked as point number 3.
15 From point number 3, we'll continue with the inked fingerprint
16 moving downward and to the right to the ridge that ends which
17 is marked as point number 4.
18 From point number 4, moving downward to the adjacent
19 ridge to the ridge that ends, this is marked as point number
20 5. From point number 5 moving to the left across, 1, 2, 3, 4,
21 5, 6, to the seventh ridge, this ridge divides into two ridges
22 and is mark as point number 6.
23 From point number 6 moving upward and to the left
24 across one ridge is a ridge that divides which is marked as
25 point number 7.
3307
1 Going back to the latent fingerprint, these
2 additional characteristics should also appear in that print as
3 well.
4 From point number 3 moving down and to the right is a
5 ridge that ends which is marked as point number 4. From point
6 number 4 moving downward to the adjacent ridge to the left the
7 ridge ends which is mark as point number 5.
8 Moving to the left across 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ridges is
9 a ridge that divides which is marked as point number 6. From
10 point number 6 moving to the left across one ridge is a ridge
11 that divides which is mark as point number 7.
12 Using this method of comparison, the seven that I
13 illustrated as well as some that are marked, additional ones
14 that are marked, as well as others that are unmarked, and
15 using the method of comparison that I demonstrated, that I
16 determined that the latent fingerprint that was developed on
17 the fax simply page in the number 7 or left index finger that
18 appeared on the fingerprint card bearing the name of Wadih El
19 Hage, were made by one and the same individual.
20 MR. KARAS: Thank you, sir. No further questions.
21 (Witness resumed stand)
22 THE COURT: Any questions of this witness?
23 Mr. Dratel on behalf of the defendant El Hage.
24 CROSS-EXAMINATION
25 BY MR. DRATEL:
3308
1 Q. Good afternoon, Agent Hollars.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. The FBI has the most sophisticated fingerprint analysis
4 equipment in the world, correct?
5 A. We like to think so, yes.
6 Q. And in this case you used all those resources that were
7 necessary to develop any latent prints that might be on
8 documents or other items, correct?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. And, in fact, the technology that you have is so
11 sophisticated that you can -- withdrawn.
12 The technology is so sophisticated that if there are
13 two fingerprints on top of each other that you can identify or
14 remove the first one to look at the second one, correct?
15 A. Sometimes, but not every time, no.
16 Q. It's true that fingerprints last a long time?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And, in fact, on paper it's been tested that they last up
19 to 40 years?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. One of the reasons is that the fingerprint is in the fiber
22 of the paper?
23 A. The residue's absorbed into the paper, yes.
24 Q. It's a porous surface.
25 And it doesn't matter if it's stored next to other
3309
1 paper or in an envelope or in a folder. Once it's imbedded in
2 that fiber it's going to stay there, correct?
3 A. Usually, yes.
4 Q. And most often the fingerprints that are developed, the
5 latent fingerprints that are developed from documents are not
6 visible to the naked eye; is that correct?
7 A. Before the processing technique?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. And so that's not a factor in the quality of the print
11 that you ultimately develop from the process, correct?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Is it correct that it's not a factor?
14 In other words, once the fingerprint is lifted
15 through the either the laser or the ninhydrin process, that
16 it's not necessarily a worse print for comparison than you
17 would get from the naked eye?
18 I'll rephrase it if you.
19 A. I don't really understand what you're saying.
20 Q. Sure. Just because the print is not visible to the naked
21 eye and it has to be developed through a process either the
22 fluorescent photo or the ninhydrin process, doesn't affect
23 your ability to use that fingerprint, that latent print to
24 compare it to inked prints?
25 A. Once the print is developed, no, it is not affected.
3310
1 Q. Is the photographic paper that you would have photos on
2 that you photos developed on, isn't that a particularly good
3 source for fingerprints?
4 A. Photographic paper?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. It's also true, isn't it, that you don't need a very large
8 sample from the fingerprint in order to make a positive
9 identification?
10 A. It depends.
11 Q. But it be as small as a thumb tack, correct?
12 A. Yes, in some instances.
13 Q. And even though you've developed a fingerprint and
14 compared it and identified it with an inked print that doesn't
15 tell you how the document necessarily was handled by the
16 person whose fingerprint is on it, isn't that correct?
17 A. Usually will indicate the position the hand was holding.
18 Q. But it doesn't indicate whether that was done in moving
19 the documents from one desk to another, from reading it or
20 whatever the purpose was for the person handling the document,
21 correct?
22 A. No, it does not.
23 Q. And the inked prints that you had for Mr. El Hage were
24 major case prints, correct?
25 A. Yes.
3311
1 Q. And those include not only the prints of the fingers but
2 also rolled over to the side to give you more surface areas to
3 compare?
4 A. It includes tips, the sides, lower joints as well as the
5 palms.
6 (Continued on next page)
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3312
1 Q. And you also have palm prints for Mr. El Hage, too,
2 correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And obviously those that came by the FBI were an excellent
5 quality ink print to compare against a latent print?
6 A. In most instances.
7 Q. Now, in addition to Mr. El Hage, you also compared these
8 documents that you put in evidence today and many other?
9
10 documents that you examined not only of Mr. El Hage but also
11 you compared it with the fingerprints of other persons,
12 correct?
13 A. The prints that were not identified on those items, yes.
14 Q. And maybe two dozen people, a list of about two dozen
15 people would you say, is that a fair statement?
16 A. It varied, yes.
17 Q. But it could be as many as two dozen?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in addition to these documents that you have
20 identified today, you also tested Mr. El Hage's or compared
21 Mr. El Hage's prints with many other documents?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And in fact, there were also other documents seized from
24 Mercy International that you tested or compared for
25 fingerprints?
3313
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Are you familiar with K317?
3 A. I'm not sure.
4 Q. Okay.
5 MR. DRATEL: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 Q. I show you what has been marked as 3522-32 and just ask
8 you to review that, and if you want also to review this
9 document which has been marked WEHXF for identification.
10 (Pause)
11 Q. Maybe you should keep that and I'll go through it.
12 Those are your -- well, withdrawn. You tested a
13 series of documents that are labeled K317.1 through K317.6?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. And those are receipts, three receipts and three
16 consignment notes, is that correct, for something called Jihan
17 Freighters, J-I-H-A-N, freighters?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. And on 317.1 it developed one latent print; is that
20 correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. 317.2, developed one latent print?
23 A. I'm not sure. Hold on.
24 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, can I approach?
25 THE COURT: Yes.
3314
1 (Pause)
2 Q. I will move on.
3 317.4 developed?
4 A. No.
5 Q. 317.5, though, there were five prints developed, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And a palm print, correct?
8 A. Yes, five fingerprints and one palm print.
9 Q. And those were identified as belonging to Mohamed Karama
10 Salim, correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And on K317.6 there was one print developed, correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. And there were no other prints identified from those
15 documents except for Mohamed Karama Salim; is that right?
16 A. On 317?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. And you tested Mr. El Hage and -- you compared, rather,
20 Mr. El Hage and the others on the list that you had at that
21 time, correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. And that was a document seized from Mercy International,
24 right?
25 A. Yes.
3315
1 Q. Also, K323, it should be on the same set of documents for
2 your review, if you refresh your recollection.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. That was also seized from Mercy International, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And that was a letter from a doctor dated June 1, 1996?
7 A. I'm not sure. Let me check.
8 Yes.
9 Q. Eight latent prints were developed from that document; is
10 that correct?
11 A. Eight fingerprints, yes.
12 Q. And six were identified as coming from Mr. Fazhul; is that
13 correct?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Do you know him also as Harun in your investigation?
16 A. Pardon?
17 Q. Mr. Fazhul, do you also know him as Harun in your
18 investigation?
19 A. No.
20 Q. The other two were not identified, is that correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. The remaining two fingerprints. And you checked Mr. El
23 Hage, correct, you compared -- you also compared for the other
24 people on your list; is that correct?
25 A. Correct.
3316
1 Q. K324, that's a document also seized from Mercy?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that's a letter with respect to the Fisheries
4 Department in Mombasa?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And how many prints were developed from that document, if
7 you could tell us.
8 A. Eight fingerprints and four palm prints.
9 Q. And the only ones that were identified were those
10 belonging to again Mohamed Karama Salim; is that correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And the others were tested or compared for all of the
13 other people on the list, including Mr. El Hage?
14 A. That's correct.
15 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, if I may, just to speed the
16 process, just give the witness right now --
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 Q. Did you also examine and compare a document K546?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Withdrawn.
21 K547?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that's 15 passport-sized photos that were seized from
24 Mercy International; is that correct?
25 A. That's correct.
3317
1 Q. And there were three prints, three latent prints that were
2 developed from those photographs, correct?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And they could not be identified, correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And you compared them to Mr. El Hage and all the other
7 persons on the list that you had?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And in fact, on that one, you also intercompared them with
10 other prints that you had on some other documents, isn't that
11 correct, not just the ink fingerprints but also with other
12 prints that had been developed?
13 A. Yes, I did that.
14 Q. In addition to documents seized from Mercy that you
15 examined, you also examined hundreds of other documents,
16 correct, in the investigation?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And not only documents, but you also examined objects that
19 were given to you, correct, as part of the investigation?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Including everything from a lotion bottle or a shampoo
22 bottle, correct?
23 A. I think so, yes.
24 Q. And many of those documents were from seizures in the
25 Comoros Islands; isn't that correct?
3318
1 A. I don't recall all the locations.
2 MR. DRATEL: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
3 Q. If you would just look through these for a second.
4 (Pause)
5 Q. Does that refresh your recollection that you examined many
6 documents, perhaps more than a hundred, from the Comoros
7 Islands?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Documents and objects?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And in fact, one of them, 308, I would just like to focus
12 on, which is the smaller document, and that's a notebook with
13 illustrations and drawings seized in the Comoros Islands,
14 correct?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. And the only fingerprint that was identifiable there was
17 from Mr. Fazhul, correct?
18 A. I don't see the print as being identified at this point.
19 Q. This may help.
20 A. There was one print developed. It's not been identified.
21 Q. But it was tested all the names on the list, including
22 Mr. El Hage, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, when you received a document or an object to examine
25 for fingerprint comparison, you assigned it a K number or a Q
3319
1 number; isn't that correct?
2 A. If it doesn't have one assigned at the time I receive it,
3 I will assign it. At this point, these were all assigned
4 previously before I ever received them.
5 Q. But if it doesn't have a K number or a Q number for a
6 document, would that indicate that it was not examined by you?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. So you would have put a K number or a Q number if it
9 didn't have it when it came to you, you would put it on?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. That would mean it was not examined for fingerprint
12 purposes, correct?
13 A. It probably wasn't examined in our laboratory. The policy
14 in our laboratory is it's assigned either a K or a Q for
15 tracking.
16 Q. My point is it's not examined for fingerprints in your
17 laboratory if it doesn't have a K number or a Q number?
18 A. There was probably no examination done.
19 Q. And do you recall ever examining or comparing any
20 documents that were seized from the home of Mr. El Hage in
21 Kenya?
22 A. Not from Kenya, no.
23 Q. In fact, in terms of the lists that you had of persons to
24 compare against, did you ever receive any inked fingerprints
25 from anyone to your knowledge who worked at Mercy
3320
1 International?
2 A. No.
3 MR. DRATEL: Nothing further, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Anything further?
5 MR. KARAS: Very briefly, your Honor.
6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. KARAS:
8 Q. Sir, you testified on cross-examination that the FBI has a
9 laboratory that analyzes fingerprints, you recall that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Are there are also private laboratories that analyze
12 documents for fingerprints?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, if somebody touches a document, a paper document, do
15 they necessarily leave a fingerprint?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And even if they leave some type of fingerprint, can that
18 fingerprint always be lifted as an identifiable linked
19 fingerprint?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And with respect to the summary chart 659, if we could
22 display it for a minute, please.
23 In each of these instances where you were processing
24 the government exhibits that are contained in the second
25 column there, were you comparing any identifiable lifts with
3321
1 both Mr. El Hage and Mr. Fazhul, among others?
2 A. Yes, all unidentified prints were compared with the entire
3 list as it appears on the report.
4 Q. So, for example, the first exhibit there, Government
5 Exhibit 611, where you have identified Mr. El Hage's print, if
6 you had identified Mr. Fazhul's print, would you have put that
7 name in that column?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And with respect to Government Exhibit 615A, if you had
10 identified Mr. Fazhul's print, would you have put his name in
11 that column?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. KARAS: No further questions.
14 MR. DRATEL: Nothing further.
15 THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down.
16 (Witness excused)
17 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, the government and we would
18 stipulate that Fazhul on the chart is Harun, as has been
19 discussed.
20 THE COURT: The parties have stipulated that the
21 reference to Fazhul is a reference to somebody otherwise
22 identified as Harun.
23 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, your Honor.
24 MR. DRATEL: One other thing, your Honor. Apparently
25 we already had a WEHYF, so that would be G for identification.
3322
1 THE COURT: Very well. All right.
2 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I had previously offered
3 Government Exhibit 617. I was going to offer now Government
4 Exhibit 617T, the translation, subject to the same terms of
5 the stipulation.
6 THE COURT: 617T is received.
7 (Government Exhibit 617T received in evidence)
8 MR. FITZGERALD: I would like to read that into the
9 record.
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 (Government Exhibit 617T, in evidence, read)
12 MR. FITZGERALD: At this time, your Honor, the
13 government would call Abigail Seda.
14 THE COURT: Very well.
15 ABIGAIL SEDA, recalled.
16 MR. FITZGERALD: I was intending that the witness be
17 recalled.
18 THE COURT: Ma'am, the Court reminds you you are
19 still under oath.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 DIRECT EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
23 Q. I'll approach the witness with what has been premarked for
24 identification as Government Exhibits 364C, 365C and 594B.
25 Ms. Seda, I have put before you three charts.
3323
1 Starting with 364C, is that a chart you helped prepare and
2 then review for accuracy?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. And that chart includes telephone calls from certain
5 numbers. Is that the number indicated at the top of the
6 chart?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. And is the source of that information Government Exhibit
9 364B?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And does it reflect the calls between the number
12 408-244-1209 and three other numbers during the period of the
13 fall of 1994?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And is one of those numbers in Kenya?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And are the other two numbers in New York?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is that a fair and accurate chart of calls between the
20 number in area code 408 to those three numbers during the
21 period of October, November and December 1994?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And where the dates are listed and the times are listed,
24 what times are they?
25 A. That would be the local time for California.
3324
1 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, the government offers
2 364C.
3 THE COURT: Received.
4 (Government Exhibit 364C received in evidence)
5 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
6 Q. And next I would turn to 365C, and is that a chart you
7 also helped to prepare and review?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And does that reflect calls from another telephone number
10 in California?
11 A. Yes, it does.
12 Q. And are those toll calls reflected in what is marked as
13 Government Exhibit 365B?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Does that reflect two telephone calls made on a given date
16 in 1998 in a given time span of about ten minutes?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And does that chart accurately reflect the telephone
19 numbers dialed, according to the phone bills, for the number
20 916-338-1699?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. FITZGERALD: I would offer Government Exhibit
23 365C, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Received.
25 (Government Exhibit 365C received in evidence)
3325
1 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
2 Q. And finally, I'll show you, you have in front of you what
3 has been marked as Government Exhibit 594B. Is that a chart
4 you also helped to prepare and review?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. Does that reflect telephone calls from the number
7 682505331?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Does that reflect calls from that number to a particular
10 telephone number in Yemen?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And does that chart fairly and accurately reflect the
13 calls to that number in Yemen appearing on the phone bills for
14 the phone number 682505331 for the period for which the bills
15 have been obtained?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would offer Government
18 Exhibit 594B.
19 THE COURT: 594D?
20 MR. FITZGERALD: B.
21 THE COURT: 595B, as in boy, received.
22 (Government Exhibit 595B received in evidence)
23 MR. FITZGERALD: I have no further questions.
24 MR. SCHMIDT: Briefly, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Yes. Mr. Schmidt, on behalf of El Hage.
3326
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. SCHMIDT:
3 Q. Good afternoon.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. On Exhibit 364C, calls from 408-244-1209, were those
6 prepared in date and sequence order, time order?
7 A. Well, it appears that one call at 7:06 appears after one
8 call at 8:26 on December 22nd.
9 Q. Were you instructed to put that telephone call after the
10 one above?
11 A. Actually, it probably appeared on the phone bill that way.
12 Q. The call to Andrew McCarthy on December 22, 1994 occurred
13 an hour and 20 minutes after the phone call to Nairobi, Kenya;
14 is that correct?
15 A. It appears so.
16 Q. When you say "it appears so"?
17 A. Well, one call occurred at 7:06 a.m., and that's a call to
18 Nairobi, Kenya, and one call occurred at 8:26 a.m. It's about
19 an hour and 20 minutes on local time.
20 Q. So you're certain that that's the time that those phone
21 calls were made based on your review of the records and in the
22 preparation of this exhibit; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, for the toll records for 408-244-1209.
24 Q. I ask you to take a look at Exhibit 365C, calls from
25 916-338-1699. You examined the toll records from that
3327
1 telephone number; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you examined the toll records for January 13, 1998; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did you examine the telephone calls from any other
7 date, approximately, that time?
8 A. I examined the toll records that we had within the exhibit
9 and just tagged those dates and those calls.
10 Q. Did you have the toll records for the month of January of
11 1998?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you have the toll calls in the month of February
14 1998 --
15 A. I don't recall at the moment.
16 Q. -- when you were preparing this record?
17 A. I don't recall at the moment whether or not they're
18 inclusive within Government Exhibit 365B.
19 Q. Did you examine the toll records to determine any
20 telephone calls that went to the 817 area code?
21 A. For this particular chart, yes.
22 Q. Was that the only number that went to the 817 area code?
23 A. Was that the only phone call?
24 Q. Phone call from 916-338-1699 that went to the 817 area
25 code during that time period?
3328
1 A. I believe so, yes.
2 Q. Were you instructed if there was other telephone calls to
3 the 817 area code that you would have reflected that in
4 Exhibit 365C?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. SCHMIDT: I have no further questions, your
7 Honor.
8 THE COURT: Anything further of this witness?
9 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Redirect examination.
11 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
12 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
13 Q. Ms. Seda, would you be available over lunch to do two
14 things: If you could take Government Exhibit 365B, which were
15 the bills from 916-338-1699, and review them with two
16 questions in mind: If you could see whether or not there were
17 any calls to the 817 area code, just generally, reflective on
18 that chart, just a yes or no; whether you could also look
19 particularly to the number 817-275-2169 as reflected on that
20 chart and see if there was ever a call to 817-275-2169 before
21 January 13, 1998; would you do that, please?
22 A. Sure.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. FITZGERALD: Nothing further.
25 THE COURT: It's a good time, then, for us to break
3329
1 for lunch and we'll do that and we'll resume at 2:15.
2 (Jury not present)
3 THE COURT: Note received from the jurors, dated
4 today: "Judge Sand: Thank you very much for our new
5 microwave often and for your continuous efforts to make us as
6 comfortable as possible. Appreciatively," and it's signed by
7 all the jurors.
8 We're adjourned until 2:15.
9 (Luncheon recess)
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3330
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2 2:15 p.m.
3 (In open court; jury not present)
4 MR. FITZGERALD: There is a document seized in the
5 Ali Mohamed search which is a cover letter enclosing a
6 coconspirator list from the Sheik Abdul Rachman file. When
7 that is read to the jury we are not going to attach the
8 coconspirator list itself, but, instead, give them instruction
9 as to a coconspirator list and instruct them that Ali
10 Mohamed's name appeared in the list, but no defendants, and
11 explain that the fact that the name is in the list is not
12 offered to prove they were coconspirators, but just to show
13 that's the document that Ali Mohamed possessed.
14 The language we agreed upon is typed out before your
15 Honor with the exception that the government thinks that the
16 language in brackets, that one phrase is unnecessary.
17 THE COURT: Let me read it.
18 (Continued on next page)
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3331
1 (Jury present)
2 THE COURT: At what stage is this going to occur?
3 MR. FITZGERALD: In twenty minutes.
4 THE COURT: Let's deal with this.
5 MR. FITZGERALD: If I may continue with the witness,
6 your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Yes.
8 DIRECT EXAMINATION(Continued)
9 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
10 Q. Now, Ms. Seda, did you have a chance to look over the
11 records during the lunch break?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. In the record depicted in that exhibit are there any other
14 phone calls to the 817 area code that are not reflected on the
15 chart that you did?
16 A. No, there are not.
17 Q. Are there any other calls to the number 8172752169 other
18 than what appears in the chart?
19 A. No.
20 Q. There is also a number listed for the United Kingdom on
21 that chart, correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Are there other calls to that number in the United
24 Kingdom?
25 A. Yes.
3332
1 Q. Are there any other calls between, are there any other
2 calls between the time of the call to the number 817-275-2169
3 on January 13th and the call to the United Kingdom number on
4 that same day?
5 A. No.
6 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you. I have nothing further.
7 THE COURT: Anything further of this witness?
8 MR. DRATEL: No, your Honor.
9 (Witness excused)
10 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, at this time the
11 government would read into the record a document previously
12 received in evidence through the testimony of Agent Ernst and
13 seized in the residence of Ali Mohamed. It's Government
14 Exhibit 358.
15 And I would display first 358T which is the
16 translation of the end of the letter.
17 THE COURT: That's not referring to the list.
18 MR. FITZGERALD: No. 358T. If we can display 358
19 page 1, I will read the letter.
20 (Government exhibit 358-T read)
21 Your Honor, I would now display 365C which is the
22 chart just received in evidence of calls from the phone
23 916-338-1699 and note the entry January 13 '98 at 9:50 p.m. a
24 call for one minute to 817-275-2169.
25 Following that the entry for the same day, January 13
3333
1 '98 at 9:54 p.m. a call for 21 minutes to a number in the
2 United Kingdom 441-819-318-206.
3 At this time, your Honor, I would read a stipulation,
4 Government Exhibit 158.
5 It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and between the
6 parties as follows:
7 1. That on May 10, 2000 the residence of Nazih al
8 Wadih Raghie located in Manchester, United Kingdom was
9 searched and the following items were seized by the British
10 authorities:
11 Below that is listed the Government Exhibit numbers
12 and the Bates numbers for 1650, 1675, 1676, 1677, 1677-T as
13 well as 1678. It is further stipulated and agreed that the
14 other materials produced by the government in discovery
15 pertaining to these searches are also authentic photographs or
16 other reproductions of films seized or documents copied from
17 computers seized from the premises.
18 Your Honor, at this time I would offer in evidence
19 Government Exhibit 158, and the first four exhibits created
20 therein, 1650, 1675, 1676, 1677, and the corresponding
21 translation, 1677T.
22 THE COURT: Received.
23 (Government's Exhibits 158, 1650, 1675, 1676, 1677,
24 1677-T received in evidence)
25 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, at this point we would
3334
1 display for the jury Government Exhibit 1675, page 2: If we
2 could draw attention just to a name, Raghie, first name Nauzi.
3 And if we could enlarge the photograph on the left-hand side
4 of the page. If we could now split the screen and compare
5 that photograph with what has been received in evidence as
6 Government Exhibit 4, page 9.
7 If we could also display on the right-hand side an
8 item seized from the search of Mercy International Government
9 Exhibit 604-2, and if we could focus on the second row, second
10 picture.
11 If we could now display for the jury Government
12 Exhibit 1650 received in evidence. I'll just read the E Mail
13 address, Bakhbol @AOL.com.
14 If we could display Government Exhibit 1677, the
15 cover page, and if we could display the translation for that
16 first page of 1677. It is forbidden to remove this from the
17 house.
18 If we could new show the next page, the translation.
19 (Translation read)
20 If we can display page 3 of this manual. I'll read
21 the translation.
22 (Translation read)
23 Now if we could display page 11 and the translation
24 for page 11. I'll read the translation for this page. 5.
25 Sorry, I think it's page 12.
3335
1 (Translation read)
2 Display Government Exhibit 4, page 5.
3 The government would display on the Elmo overhead
4 projector, Government Exhibit 304 pages 15 and 19. If we can
5 zoom in at the top entry on the page, it says Linda, Haid
6 4082441209.
7 If we could now move four pages, Government Exhibit
8 304, received during the testimony of Agent Coleman, and focus
9 on the second entry where it says Norman, and there are two
10 numbers, 2495637 slash 2441209.
11 Now if we could display on the overhead projector
12 Government Exhibit 305 also received during the testimony of
13 Agent Coleman. We display the inside cover is Anhar Trading,
14 Wadih El Hage. And now turn to page 112. Focusing on the
15 left the entry in the middle of the page Ali M and Associates,
16 720 Harvard number 2, Santa Clara, California 95051.
17 Move ahead and focus on the entry that says Norman,
18 720 Harvard Avenue, number 2, Santa Clara, 95051 in blue ink
19 9163381699 and below that crossed out 2495637.
20 And then if we could display Government Exhibit 317,
21 page 54 and focus on the entry in the middle of the page that
22 says Haid Abdi, 91633381699.
23 I'd like to also read into the record from the
24 exhibit 365A and B just testified to used by Abigail Seda
25 under 9163381699. The big name was Linda El Sanchez, 7233
3336
1 Pepperwood Knoll, Sacramento, California.
2 Also display Government Exhibit 636A, page 7. This
3 is a document from the Mercy search. If we can focus on the
4 page for Haid crossed out, the second to last entry on the
5 page 4082441209.
6 If we can also look at Government Exhibit 636B also
7 from the Mercy search, pages 2, 3, and 5. On page 2 if we can
8 focus on the entry for Haid. If you look at the entry there
9 it says Haid up to the right it looks like gems, G-E-M-S. To
10 the right it says 4082441209.
11 Go to the next page, page 3, look for an entry for
12 Norman. Again, if we could focus on the third entry, Norman,
13 4082441209. Go two pages later to page 5 and focus on the
14 next to last entry where Norman is crossed out and Haid, and
15 to the right 4082441209.
16 Then one more from the 636 series, exhibit 636C, blue
17 notebook on the outside says October, November, December '96.
18 We'll focus on page 10. Looking at the fifth from the bottom
19 Haid Abdi 4082441209.
20 Your Honor, I believe we reached the point where we
21 are about to show the document for which the proposed
22 instruction.
23 THE COURT: Let me see counsel and the reporter in
24 the robing room for a moment.
25
3338
1 (Pages 3337 sealed)
2 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, at this time the
3 government would offer to read 367R and 367-4 which is
4 substantially identical, except one has some handwriting added
5 to it. I would read 367R which was received during the
6 testimony. It is a redacted version of what was received
7 during the testimony of Agent Ernst concerning the search at
8 7233 Pepperwood Knoll. I will display one copy on the
9 overhead projector.
10 I'll read it for the record. February 2, 1995. By
11 hand all counsel of record. Re: United States V Omar Abdel
12 Rahman ladies and gentlemen enclosed is a list of unindicted
13 persons who may be alleged as coconspirators. The list is not
14 exhaustive and as is always the case, the government's
15 investigation is continuing.
16 The government further directs your attention to the
17 prior discovery. The list is as complete as I could make it
18 in good faith. If we discover missing names they will be
19 added.
20 Very truly yours, Mary Jo White United States
21 Attorney by Andrew C. McCarthy, Assistant United States
22 Attorney, and it lists his telephone number as 212-791-1940.
23 The other version we would offer 367R and 367-4. And
24 I would read just the handwriting on 367-4 which is a poor
25 copy, but if we enlarge the lower left corner. Read from
3339
1 Haydara, the supervisor. Please hand deliver the five pages
2 to the supervisor by hand. At this time, your Honor, we would
3 ask for the instruction.
4 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, Government Exhibit
5 467R is a letter copied during the search of the residence of
6 Ali Mohamed. As the letter states, it attaches a list of
7 names of people who might be alleged to be coconspirators in a
8 different proceeding. It is a common practice of trial judges
9 to direct the government to prepare a lot of names of people
10 who may be considered coconspirators to furnish for the
11 defendants and the Court to assist in dealing with possible
12 legal issues and factual issues that may arise.
13 As a matter of general litigation practice such a
14 list is usually overinclusive including many names of persons
15 as to who no proof is later offered in those proceedings.
16 That list included a number of names including Usama Bin
17 Laden, and Ali A. Mohammed. The list did not name any
18 defendant now on trial before you.
19 The fact that the names Usama Bin Laden and Ali
20 Mohamed were on the list is not offered to prove and does not
21 prove that in fact those two persons were coconspirators in
22 the other proceeding. It is only offered to show the fact
23 that Ali Mohamed possessed a copy of the document.
24 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Judge.
25 At this time the government would read from a
3340
1 stipulation marked Government Exhibit 153.
2 It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and between the
3 parties as follows:
4 1. If called as a witness Special Agent Harlan Bell
5 would testify that:
6 1. In or about 1994 Agent Bell was assigned to the
7 New York office of the FBI and could be reached at telephone
8 number 212-335-2611.
9 2. In the fall of 1994 Agent Bell sought to arrange
10 an interview of Ali Mohamed by having an FBI agent in
11 California contact Ali Mohamed's wife to advise her that the
12 FBI wished to interview Ali Mohamed.
13 3. On or about December 9, 1994 he interviewed Ali
14 Mohamed in San Jose, California in the company of Assistant
15 United States Attorney Andrew C. McCarthy who was an Assistant
16 United States Attorney in the Southern District of New York.
17 4. Ali Mohamed is a person depicted in the
18 photograph in Government Exhibit 4 which photograph is
19 identified as Abu Mohammed.
20 Paragraph 2. It is further stipulated and agreed
21 that if called to testify as a witness, Assistant United
22 States Attorney Andrew C. McCarthy would testify that:
23 1. On or about December 22, 1994 his office
24 telephone number was 212-791-1940.
25 2. On or about December 9, 1994 he attended the
3341
1 interview of Ali Mohamed in California.
2 3. On or about December 22, 1994 at approximately
3 5:13 p.m. New York time he sent by facsimile from New York a
4 letter to Ali Mohamed concerning a subpoena that had been
5 served upon Ali Mohamed the prior week.
6 4. On or about December 22, 1994 at approximately
7 5:14 p.m. New York time he received by facsimile a copy of the
8 letter he sent to Ali Mohamed reflecting the signature of Ali
9 Mohamed acknowledging receipt of the letter.
10 It is further stipulated and agreed that this
11 stipulation may be received in evidence as a Government
12 Exhibit at trial.
13 Your Honor, I would offer Government Exhibit 153.
14 THE COURT: Received.
15 (Government's Exhibit 153 received in evidence)
16 MR. FITZGERALD: At this time I would publish
17 Government Exhibit 364C to the jury which was received during
18 the testimony of Abigail Seda. I'll just read the entries.
19 This is a chart of calls from the number 4082441209.
20 I'll read them in the order in which they occurred.
21 October 18, 1994, 12:09 a.m., a call to Kenya at the number
22 2547120221. A call a minute later to the same number for
23 three minutes. December 20 '94, 9:35 a.m. local time, call to
24 2547120221.
25 The next day, 12/21/94 a call at 710 a.m. to
3342
1 212-335-2611 in New York, New York, and the user listed as
2 Harlan Bell.
3 December 2194 at 8:31 a.m. a call for one minute to
4 2127911940, and the user listed Andrew McCarthy. A call the
5 same day, two minutes later, 122194 at 8:33 a.m. for one
6 minute, to 212-791-1940 in New York, New York to Andrew
7 McCarthy.
8 On December 22 '94 going in time order, 7:06 a.m. a
9 call for three minutes to 2547120221. A call later that day
10 at 8:26 a.m. for two minutes to 212-791-1940 to the user
11 Andrew McCarthy and a call later that day December 22 '94 at
12 10:52 p.m. in the evening for four minutes to 2547120221.
13 Your Honor, I omitted to read a chart earlier, after
14 reading the letter. This is chart 365C. If I can display
15 that to the jury. It was received during the testimony of
16 Ms. Seda.
17 It shows a call on January 13 '98 at 9:50 to
18 8172752169 and a call four minutes later to a number in the
19 United Kingdom.
20 Now, at this time, your Honor, I'd like to display
21 what's previously been received in evidence as Government
22 Exhibit 604, and it will be a photograph 604-1 with focus on
23 the second row, the second person.
24 If we could put that to the left side of the screen
25 and compare it with an exhibit previously offered, subject to
3343
1 connection, Government Exhibit 113.
2 Your Honor, I offer Government Exhibit 113 for all
3 purposes at this time.
4 THE COURT: Received.
5 (Government's Exhibit 113 received in evidence)
6 MR. FITZGERALD: Now I'd like to display Government
7 Exhibit 304 which is again the pop up phone book admitted
8 during the testimony of Agent Coleman. Turn to page 15 under
9 D.
10 Display the entry for Khalid Dabit. Looking at the
11 entry for Khalid Dabit, the next to last entry on the page
12 read the number 4-401975 with a slash mark next to, 1233701
13 with the word Fah.
14 Now, if we could display on the screen a different
15 exhibit which is Government Exhibit 357 received during the
16 testimony of Agent Ernst, concerning the search at 7233
17 Pepperwood Knoll and it's page 357. Look at that phone book
18 if we can focus on the right side where it says 4401975. If I
19 can read the entry from Government Exhibit 357T for that page,
20 Khaled.
21 In addition, if we could display, I'd now like to
22 publish to the jury what was received during the testimony of
23 Abigail Seda as Government Exhibit 594-B which is a two-page
24 chart showing calls from the numbers 682505331 to a number
25 ending in 4401975 in Yemen, and I believe the total number of
3344
1 calls listed on the bottom of page 2 is 30.
2 If we could now display to the jury Government
3 Exhibit 4, page 6 with the caption Abu Mohammed el Masry and
4 Saleh. Compare that with the photograph seized in a search of
5 Mercy International, 604 to the right side. That is
6 Government Exhibit 4, page 6. On the right we have Government
7 Exhibit 604 with an enlarged picture of the first row second
8 picture.
9 Now, I'd like to go back to Government Exhibit 304
10 the pop up phone book admitted during the testimony of Agent
11 Coleman and turn to page 27, the entries under T, and look for
12 Tayseer. The number is 272177.
13 If we could now display on the Elmo Government
14 Exhibit 305 which is again the black organizer with the
15 business card of Wadih El Hage on the inside and turn to the
16 tab page for Tayseer.
17 Read into the record, Tayseer, box 35341 on the
18 right, 272177.
19 Now I'd like to display on the Elmo Government
20 Exhibit 621C which were some phone bills recovered in the
21 search of Mercy International and the bill for the month of
22 February 1997. Phone number is 71202219 is the number that's
23 billed. And if we can first, the page reflecting calls in the
24 month of January 1997, the last entry, and then the page
25 reflecting calls in early February 1997.
3345
1 If we could focus on that entry for January in the
2 last call on the bill for January 25. The entry says
3 521272177, Pakistan. If we can now turn the page to the calls
4 for the entry for February 3, 1997, the next page. If we can
5 focus on the entry for February 3, which is the third entry
6 from the bottom, read the entry: Call to 521272177 in
7 Pakistan.
8 One moment, your Honor.
9 (Pause)
10 Now, your Honor, I'd like to display a number of
11 other exhibits from the search at Mercy International, the
12 first one being 602, and the translation of Government Exhibit
13 602T, pages 63 and 64.
14 Display the translation on the Elmo. 602 is a red
15 notebook from Mercy International relief agency. We'll just
16 line up page 63 and I'll just read.
17 (Government 602, page 63 read)
18 I'd now like to display Government Exhibit 621A. I
19 will skip 621A for the moment and move to 624A and read from
20 624A-T.
21 (Government Exhibit 624A-T read)
22 Reading from 624B-T translation.
23 (Government Exhibit 624B-T read)
24 At this time we'd like to display on the overhead,
25 Government Exhibit 626, memorandum and articles association of
3346
1 Asma Limited. Just focus on the title of company, Asma
2 Limited.
3 If you look at the last page a list of directors,
4 reading into the record Mohamed Karama Salim. Underneath that
5 businessman and Khalid Abdul Rachman, Hamad Al Fauwas,
6 businessman. Underneath that, Jalal Fouad, Elemigy Abdeldaim,
7 businessman.
8 We now display to the jury additional items seized
9 from the Mercy search which is Government Exhibit 629 a stamp
10 and 630 a set of business cards. If we can show the face of
11 the stamp, and if we could pull out just one of the business
12 cards for display as well.
13 I can try to read the stamp backward. If you move
14 the stamp down a little bit. Asma Limited Export and Import,
15 PO box 55200, Nairobi, Kenya. Below the business card, Asma
16 Limited Mohammed Karama director, again, PO Box 55200.
17 We display Government Exhibit 638, a pad of
18 stationery with the title Asma Limited and Government Exhibit
19 640, a receipt book for Asma.
20 If we can open to a random page to show the receipt
21 again. Asma Limited PO box 55200.
22 And, finally, two more exhibits, Government Exhibit
23 643. The upper left-hand corner says transfer deed, company
24 named Asma Limited, and then transfer from, if we can focus on
25 that Khalid Abdul Rahman if we can look to the transfer to
3347
1 below, Jalal Fuad, Nairobi, and the date, focus in on the
2 date. 1994. Look for the month, October 1994.
3 Finally, if we could display Government Exhibit 644
4 an income tax identification card, I'll read into the record
5 the income tax department personal identification number
6 certificate for Khalid Abdul Rahman al Fouad.
7 (Continued on next page)
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3348
1 MR. FITZGERALD: And now if we could return to
2 Government Exhibit 304, the pop-up phone book taken during
3 the -- received during the testimony of Agent Coleman, and go
4 to page 11, looking under G. If we could focus in the middle
5 of the page under Ghazi, 1716242462, and next to that is a
6 slash followed by 1713289651.
7 If we could now look at Government Exhibit 636A,
8 another document, this document now from the Mirror Search
9 Yellow Book, it says December '95, January '96, and if we
10 could look at the entry on this page and again looking under
11 Ghazi Publications, we have the number 1713289651/1716242462
12 underneath the name Khalid with the number crossed out. Then
13 it says HM0 12716251881, then it says MOB 0385918543, followed
14 by the reference 94 Dewsbury Road.
15 And if we could now go back to Government Exhibit
16 305, which is the black leather organizer with the El Hage
17 business card inside, and look at page 123, and at page 123
18 we'll focus on the entry that says Hamad and Omar followed by
19 the numbers 1716242462 and the reference "office" and number
20 beneath 0385918543 with the reference M.
21 And if we could then go back two pages and look for
22 an entry for Ghazi, and if we could focus on the entry Ghazi
23 M. Omar and now look at 94 Dewsburry, D-E-W-S-B-U-R-R-Y, 94
24 Dewsburry Road, Arlington, Texas 76010.
25 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time the government
3349
1 calls Detective Constable Paul Webber.
2 THE COURT: We'll take our mid-afternoon recess.
3 (Recess)
4 THE COURT: This next witness is not to be the
5 subject of any sketching.
6 (Jury present)
7 THE COURT: The government may call its next witness.
8 MR. KARAS: Thank you, your Honor. The government
9 calls Detective Constable Paul Webber.
10 PAUL LESLIE WEBBER,
11 called as a witness by the government,
12 having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
13 DEPUTY CLERK: Will you please state your full name.
14 THE WITNESS: Paul Leslie Webber.
15 DEPUTY CLERK: Please spell your last name.
16 THE WITNESS: W-E-B-B-E-R.
17 DIRECT EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. KARAS:
19 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
20 A. Good afternoon.
21 Q. Can you tell us how you are employed.
22 A. I am a detective constable employed by the Devan &
23 Cornwall Constabulary, England.
24 Q. What type of work do you do?
25 A. I'm a police officer.
3350
1 Q. And can you tell us what your duties were around September
2 23, 1998?
3 A. I was constabled to SO313, the antiterrorist branch of New
4 Scotland Yard, London.
5 Q. For what purpose?
6 A. For the purpose of an operation in the London area.
7 Q. What kind of operation was that?
8 A. Specifically for me to go to a premise in that as an
9 exhibits officer.
10 Q. What is the premises you went to?
11 A. 94 Dewsbury Road in North London.
12 Q. And who did you understand to be the occupant of that
13 premise?
14 A. Khalid al-Fawwaz.
15 Q. I'm going to approach with what has been premarked as
16 Government Exhibit 1608 and ask that you take a look at it.
17 Do you recognize that?
18 A. I do, yes.
19 Q. Can you tell us what that is?
20 A. This is a map of the North London area and it indicates
21 the address at point 5 that we've just mentioned.
22 Q. And point 5 is the address of what?
23 A. 94 Dewsbury Road.
24 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer 1608.
25 THE COURT: Received.
3351
1 (Government Exhibit 1608 received in evidence)
2 BY MR. KARAS:
3 Q. I believe earlier you mentioned you were the exhibits
4 officer during this search. Can you tell the jury exactly
5 what an exhibits officer does?
6 A. An exhibits officer for the antiterrorist branch controls
7 any scene and has working for him officers who will conduct a
8 search. Any items found by the searching officer is then
9 seized and exhibited by the exhibits officer. So although you
10 may have four persons searching a property, only one person
11 produces the actual exhibits.
12 Q. Can you describe for us the premises at 94 Dewsbury Road
13 in London?
14 A. It's a semi-detached three-bedroom property with a full
15 court front garden to the rear. Inside the premises consisted
16 of a front room, which was referred to as an office, a room
17 behind that was a sitting room. To the side of that was a
18 kitchen and there was also a downstairs bathroom. Upstairs,
19 it consisted of three bedrooms and a bathroom.
20 Q. Sir, I'm going to approach with what have been premarked
21 for identification as Government Exhibits 1600A, 1638-I.D.,
22 1601, 1602, 1638 and 1639 and I'm going to ask you to take a
23 look at them.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Beginning with 1600A, do you recognize that?
3352
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. How do you recognize it?
3 A. I recognize it because it bears an exhibit number on this
4 bag of PLW93 containing documents and bears my signature.
5 Q. Can you tell us exactly what that is that you are holding?
6 A. Just a quantity of documents, which is how I documented it
7 at the time.
8 Q. How are they secured as a quantity of documents? Is that
9 a bag you are holding?
10 A. Sorry, yes, they are inside a tamper-proof bag.
11 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time the government
12 offers 16A into evidence -- 1600, excuse me.
13 THE COURT: Received.
14 (Government Exhibit 1600 received in evidence)
15 BY MR. KARAS:
16 Q. Sir, if you could turn, please, to 1638-ID.
17 A. Yes, I have that.
18 Q. Can you tell us what that is.
19 A. This is Exhibit No. BM3, which is a quantity of
20 correspondence which has been split from my Exhibit PLW88.
21 Do you want me to explain --
22 Q. Please.
23 A. A split exhibit is where you may take a number of
24 exhibits. Later on, you would decide that certain ones of
25 those, of that group of papers that you may have taken, need
3353
1 to be separated, and you would then call that a split and it's
2 created as a separate exhibit.
3 Q. Now, 1638-I.D. for the record, what exactly is it that you
4 are holding?
5 A. This is a quantity of correspondence.
6 Q. And how is it secured?
7 A. Again, inside a tamper-proof bag.
8 Q. And where were those items found?
9 A. At 94 Dewsbury Road.
10 Q. And same as 1600-A as well?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Now, with respect to 1601 and 1602 as well as 1638 and
13 1639, can you tell us what those are?
14 A. These are all individual pieces of paper, correspondence
15 and the like, and which were pulled from the other exhibits
16 yesterday.
17 Q. And from where exactly were those exhibits pulled from?
18 A. These were taken from 1638-I.D.
19 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer 1601,
20 1602, 1638 and 1639.
21 THE COURT: Received.
22 (Government Exhibits 1601, 1602, 1638 and 1639
23 received in evidence)
24 BY MR. KARAS:
25 Q. Sir, I'm going to approach with what have been premarked
3354
1 for identification as Exhibits 1603-I.D. and 1603, 1604, 1605,
2 1606 and 1607 and ask you to take a look at them.
3 Starting with a 1603-I.D., can you tell us what that
4 is?
5 A. This is Exhibit No. BM4, a bag containing correspondence,
6 information and selected correspondence, which again is a
7 split from PLW90.
8 Q. And where were those documents found?
9 A. 94 Dewsbury Road.
10 Q. Did you take those documents yourself?
11 A. I did, yes.
12 Q. By the way, does the bag indicate where within 94 Dewsbury
13 Road you took those documents?
14 A. Not on this bag. You would have to go back to the bag,
15 PLW90.
16 Q. Now, with respect to 1603 through 1607, can you tell us
17 what those documents are?
18 A. These were documents which were pulled from this exhibit
19 yesterday.
20 Q. And are those documents that you seized from 94 Dewsbury
21 Road?
22 A. Yes, they are.
23 Q. Sir, I'm approaching with what has been marked for
24 identification as Government Exhibit 1621, and ask that you
25 take a look at it.
3355
1 Can you tell us what 1621 is?
2 A. 1621 is a letter from ABC News to Mr. S. Rashid, referring
3 to Bin Laden.
4 Q. And where was that document found?
5 A. At 94 Dewsbury Road.
6 Q. How do you recognize that as a document that was found at
7 94 Dewsbury Road?
8 A. It's exhibited at item PLW23 and the bag bears my
9 signature.
10 Q. By the way PLW23, can you tell us what that kind of
11 designation is?
12 A. PLW23, PLW are my initials, 23 would be the 23rd exhibit
13 that I had seized.
14 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer
15 Government Exhibit 1621.
16 THE COURT: Received.
17 (Government Exhibit 1621 received in evidence)
18 BY MR. KARAS:
19 Q. Sir, I'm going to approach with what have been marked for
20 identification as Government Exhibits 1622-I.D. and 1622,
21 1623, 1624, and 1625.
22 Beginning with 1622-I.D., can you tell us what that
23 is?
24 A. This is a large quantity of miscellaneous papers and
25 letters, exhibit numbered PLW32. Again, that bears my
3356
1 signature.
2 Q. And where were those taken from?
3 A. 94 Dewsbury Road.
4 Q. With respect to 1622, 1623, 1624, and 1625?
5 A. These are all splits. These were pulled from the exhibit
6 we've just been referring to yesterday.
7 Q. And again, for the record, 1622-I.D., what exactly is that
8 whole exhibit?
9 A. It's a large quantity of miscellaneous papers and letters.
10 Q. And how is it packaged?
11 A. It's inside some folders inside a large tamper-proof bag.
12 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer 1622,
13 1623, 1624, and 1625.
14 THE COURT: Yes, received.
15 (Government Exhibits 1622, 1623, 1624 and 1625
16 received in evidence)
17 THE COURT: 1604 to 1607 have not been moved in
18 evidence.
19 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer 1603
20 through 1607.
21 THE COURT: Received.
22 (Government Exhibits 1603, 1604, 1605, 1606 and 1607
23 received in evidence)
24 BY MR. KARAS:
25 Q. Sir, I'm going to approach with what have been marked for
3357
1 identification as Government Exhibits 1627-I.D. and 1627.
2 Can you tell us what 1627-I.D. is?
3 A. This is assorted correspondence.
4 Q. How do you recognize it?
5 A. It's Exhibit No. PLW43 and it bears my signature on the
6 back.
7 Q. And once again, is that -- can you tell us where that
8 exhibit was found?
9 A. 94 Dewsbury Road.
10 Q. Can you tell us what Government Exhibit 1627 is?
11 A. 1627 came -- was pulled from this exhibit yesterday.
12 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer exhibit
13 1627.
14 THE COURT: Received.
15 (Government Exhibit 1627 received in evidence)
16 BY MR. KARAS:
17 Q. Sir, I'm going to approach with what have been marked for
18 identification as 1628, 1628A and 1628-P.
19 Can you tell us what 1628 is?
20 A. 1628 is 18 Bin Laden declaration of Jihad. It's exhibit
21 number PLW49 and is in an exhibit bag bearing my signature.
22 Q. And where were those taken from?
23 A. 94 Dewsbury Road.
24 Q. And if you could tell us what 1628A is.
25 A. 1628A is a split from the original document of PLW -- from
3358
1 the original exhibit, sorry, of PLW49.
2 Q. And 1628-P?
3 A. That's photographs of this exhibit.
4 Q. Which one, I'm sorry?
5 A. Of the BM34, 1628A.
6 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer Exhibit
7 1628, 1628A and 1628-P.
8 THE COURT: Received.
9 (Government Exhibits 1628, 1628A and 1628-P received
10 in evidence)
11 BY MR. KARAS:
12 Q. Sir, I'm going to approach with what have been premarked
13 for identification as Government Exhibits 16A -- different
14 exhibit.
15 I'm going to approach with what have been premarked
16 for identification as 1629-I.D. and 1629. Can you tell us
17 what 1629-I.D. is?
18 A. It's two notebooks, miscellaneous correspondence bearing
19 names and telephone numbers. It's item PLW53 and bears my
20 signature on this bag.
21 Q. And were those items taken from 94 Dewsbury?
22 A. Yes, they were.
23 Q. And can you tell us what 1629 is?
24 A. 1629 was pulled from this exhibit yesterday.
25 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer 1629.
3359
1 THE COURT: Received.
2 (Government Exhibit 1629 received in evidence)
3 BY MR. KARAS:
4 Q. Sir, I'm going to approach you with what have been
5 premarked for identification as Government Exhibits 1630-I.D.
6 and 1630.
7 With respect to 1630-I.D., can you tell us what that
8 is?
9 A. This is Barclays Bank documents in the name of al-Fawwaz.
10 It's exhibited as PLW61 and has in this bag bearing my
11 signature.
12 Q. Did you seize that document?
13 A. Yes, I did from 94 Dewsbury Road.
14 Q. And 1630.
15 A. And 1630, these documents were pulled from this exhibit
16 yesterday.
17 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer Exhibit
18 1630.
19 THE COURT: Received.
20 (Government Exhibit 1630 evidence in evidence)
21 BY MR. KARAS:
22 Q. Sir, I'm approaching with what has been premarked for
23 identification as Exhibit 1631, and I'll ask you to take a
24 look at it.
25 A. Okay.
3360
1 Q. Can you tell us what 1631 is?
2 A. It's a telephone address book. It's exhibited at PLW71
3 and the bag bears my signature.
4 Q. And where was that exhibit found?
5 A. Again from 94 Dewsbury Road.
6 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, we offer 1631.
7 THE COURT: Received.
8 (Government Exhibit 1631 received in evidence)
9 BY MR. KARAS:
10 Q. Sir, I'm going to approach with what has been premarked
11 for identification as Exhibit 1632-I.D. and 1632.
12 Can you tell us what 1632-I.D. is?
13 A. It's a DHL correspondence from Afghanistan. It's Exhibit
14 PLW73 and the bag bears my signature.
15 Q. And was that an item that was taken from 94 Dewsbury?
16 A. Yes, it was.
17 Q. With respect to 1632?
18 A. That was pulled from this exhibit yesterday.
19 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer exhibit
20 1632.
21 THE COURT: Received.
22 (Government Exhibit 1632 received in evidence)
23 BY MR. KARAS:
24 Q. Sir, I'm going to approach with what have been premarked
25 for identification as Exhibit 1633-I.D. and 1633, 1634, 1635A
3361
1 and B and 1636. Starting with 1633-I.D.
2 A. This is a bunch of miscellaneous papers. It's Exhibited
3 as PLW76 and this bag bears my signature, again from 94
4 Dewsbury Road.
5 Q. And the remaining exhibits there?
6 A. The remaining exhibits were all pulled from this exhibit
7 yesterday.
8 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, we offer 1633 through 1636.
9 THE COURT: Received.
10 (Government Exhibits 1633, 1634, 1635 and 1636
11 received in evidence)
12 MR. KARAS: I have no further questions.
13 MR. RICCO: I have a few.
14 THE COURT: Cross-examination by Mr. Schmidt on
15 behalf of the defendant El Hage.
16 CROSS-EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. SCHMIDT:
18 Q. Mr. Webber, how do you wish to be addressed, is it
19 constable or detective?
20 A. Whichever you feel comfortable with.
21 Q. Mr. Webber, the PLW initials that's on the documents that
22 you seized, that stands for Paul L. Webber?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Is that to identify that you were, that you are the one
25 who either seized them or at least took possession of them?
3362
1 A. That's correct, yes.
2 Q. When you seize documents, do you need to fill out any
3 particular forms to make sure that you know exactly where
4 those documents came from?
5 A. Yes, we do. It's filled out on the bag and obviously a
6 separate record is also kept, which is in a book.
7 Q. Did you do that in this particular case?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. When do you fill out the information in the book?
10 A. About the same time.
11 Q. At the scene or back at your --
12 A. No, at the scene.
13 Q. And in this case we'll take, for example, PLW32, do you
14 have your documents in front of you? Do you have any of your
15 paperwork in front of you?
16 A. No.
17 MR. SCHMIDT: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
18 Q. Why don't you go to one of the documents that lists items,
19 the title PLW32.
20 A. I have that in front of me, yes.
21 Q. So we're all together, that is Government Exhibits 1622 to
22 1624.
23 Now, the area at Dewsbury Road had many rooms; is
24 that correct?
25 A. It had a number of rooms, as I described, yes.
3363
1 Q. And in each room there were a number of pieces of
2 furniture?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And there was also different closets?
5 A. Yes, there was.
6 Q. And you found documents and property in all different
7 places in each room; is that correct?
8 A. The majority of items were found in only two rooms.
9 Q. Now, were you able to -- by the way, what is the document
10 called that you fill out other than the envelope itself?
11 A. The exhibits book. An exhibits book.
12 Q. In the exhibits book do you describe generally the exhibit
13 that's been seized?
14 A. Yes, you do.
15 Q. For example, on PLW32, you described it -- you testified
16 as a large quantity of miscellaneous paper; is that right?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. That's generally how it would be described in the exhibit
19 book; is that right?
20 A. Yes, indeed.
21 Q. Did you describe it -- withdrawn. Would you describe the
22 items seized just as in a room, which room you found it in?
23 Would you be more specific?
24 A. You would be more specific as to where they were found.
25 Q. Why would you do that?
3364
1 A. So that you could relocate them at a later time.
2 Q. Is it also important to make sure that you know that
3 certain documents are found in one area and they don't get
4 mixed up with other documents found in another area?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Do you know where what has been described as PLW32 was
7 found, where in the room?
8 A. That was found on the second shelf of the first unit in
9 the front room, which is one I referred to as the office, and
10 that's on the bookcase.
11 Q. So there would be -- there may have been items on
12 different shelves on that bookcase?
13 A. Indeed, there would be.
14 Q. And they would be listed and described separately in the
15 exhibit book; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. So that there wouldn't be any confusion between the items
18 found on the second shelf or on the first shelf of that
19 bookcase; is that correct?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. I'll ask you to take a look at PLW43, which has been
22 entered into evidence as some items that have been admitted
23 into evidence as 1627.
24 A. I have that here, PLW43, yes.
25 Q. Now, can you tell us where exactly those items were
3365
1 recovered?
2 A. These were taken from the bottom left drawer of a desk in
3 the front room, which we referred to as the office.
4 Q. So each drawer in a desk would be separately listed in the
5 exhibit book; is that correct?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. To make sure that the items do not get mixed up between
8 the second drawer and the first drawer?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Now let's take a look at PLW53 that's been offered into
11 evidence as 1629.
12 A. I have PLW53 here.
13 Q. Where -- by the way, what was that generally? How is that
14 described?
15 A. This was two notebooks and miscellaneous correspondence,
16 names and addresses.
17 Q. Is that 53 you have in front of you?
18 A. PLW53.
19 Q. Now, has there been a line drawn on some of the documents
20 that you have and the number changed?
21 A. Sorry, can you say that again?
22 Q. 53?
23 A. Yeah.
24 MR. SCHMIDT: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
25 THE COURT: Yes.
3366
1 Q. Are you looking at 53 or 54?
2 A. Right. There's an exhibit reference on these sheets,
3 there is an exhibit reference which is PLW53. The number that
4 you have just referred to pointed down here is the fact that
5 above that you have something called the folio number, which
6 is 53.
7 Q. Could you explain the difference?
8 A. The folio number is the page of the book.
9 Q. Of the exhibit book?
10 A. Of the exhibit book, not the exhibit number.
11 Q. So the exhibit reference number would not change?
12 A. So the exhibit reference number will not change.
13 Q. And in Exhibit No. 53, the miscellaneous notebooks and
14 documents, where was that found?
15 A. That was found on the top right-hand drawer of a desk in
16 the front room.
17 Q. PLW52, which has been identified as -- which has not been
18 identified. I'll withdraw that one.
19 Let's look at PLW61. What were those items?
20 A. These are the Barclays Bank documents in the name
21 al-Fawwaz.
22 Q. From your own memory or reviewing your exhibit book, could
23 you tell us exactly where those were recovered?
24 A. That was the middle drawer of the left-hand side of the
25 desk in the front room.
3367
1 Q. Were they recovered with any other items in that drawer?
2 A. There could have been other items in that drawer, yes.
3 Q. Where would that be reflected?
4 A. Sorry?
5 Q. Where would the other items be reflected?
6 A. We would only take those items that we would find of
7 interest. Only if it was staples or whatever, they wouldn't
8 have been considered interesting. It would have been left
9 behind.
10 Q. If it was any other documents -- let me rephrase that.
11 Any other documents found in that drawer?
12 A. They could have been left behind, again, if they weren't
13 of any relevance. We don't seize what are or seize items
14 around them.
15 Q. How do you make a determination what's relevant?
16 A. That's something we assess at the time.
17 Q. In this kind of case would it be a very broad reading of
18 what's relevant?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was -- withdrawn.
21 I ask you to take a look at what has been noted as
22 PLW73. Could you tell us what those items are?
23 A. DHL correspondence from Afghanistan.
24 Q. Can you tell us where that was found?
25 A. That was on the second bookcase in the bottom cupboard of
3368
1 the front room, the office.
2 Q. So when you have indicated that it was a bottom cupboard,
3 did that likely mean that there was another, there may have
4 been another cupboard as well?
5 A. Yes, there were. There were other cupboards.
6 Q. So you made certain to distinguish between the different
7 cupboards so you would know which came from one cupboard and
8 which came from the other cupboard; is that correct?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. And I ask you take a look at PLW76, which is Government
11 Exhibit 1633 to 36.
12 A. I have PLW76 here.
13 Q. Can you tell us where that was found?
14 A. That was second bookcase, bottom cupboard of the front
15 office.
16 Q. And I assume, did you make a diagram or did anyone make a
17 diagram where the bookcases were and the desks and all the
18 other items --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- were in the room?
21 A. That was done.
22 Q. And that would be easy to locate exactly where each set of
23 documents were found; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. SCHMIDT: I have no further questions of the
3369
1 witness.
2 MR. RICCO: I have a couple of questions, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Ricco on behalf of defendant
4 Odeh.
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. RICCO:
7 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 Q. Just a few questions.
10 When you go into a premises as an exhibits and scene
11 examiner, the first thing you want to do is try to preserve
12 the integrity of what you find; isn't that correct?
13 A. Yes, you would be looking towards that, yes.
14 Q. Like, for example, when you went to 94 Dewsbury, there was
15 a car out front. You took a picture of the car?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Okay. And you drew sketches of the apartment; isn't that
18 correct?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And you tried to give it as much detail as you could to
21 make it as realistic as possible, isn't that right?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. And a team goes in and they begin to conduct a search?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Now, as the exhibits officer your job is to exhibit, that
3370
1 is, to note each item that you intend to take with you; isn't
2 that correct?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. So as the searches go throughout the apartment, they don't
5 pick the stuff up and bring it to you and say, look what I
6 found, right? They come and get you and you go to where the
7 item's found, isn't that right?
8 A. That would generally happen, yes.
9 Q. And when you get to the item, you will exhibit it right
10 there on the spot, right?
11 A. You can, yes. It would depend what it was.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. But you would generally do that.
14 Q. All right. If it's a big cow, it's difficult to exhibit a
15 cow, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But if it's a document, you try to exhibit it, right?
18 A. Yes, you do.
19 Q. And what you do is you take that item and you put it into
20 a separate bag and you seal it, isn't that right?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. And that's a very important part of the work that you do,
23 which is sealing that evidence; isn't that correct?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. And that's to keep the evidence from being commingled with
3371
1 each other; is that right?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Now, you drew diagrams of 94 Dewsbury; isn't that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You also took photographs of 92 Dewsbury; isn't that
6 correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. You also took photographs after you left to get a picture
9 of what the house looked like when you left the place; isn't
10 that correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Now, this search took place over several days, correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. And at the end of the first night you changed the cylinder
15 on the door with a new cylinder and new keys, correct?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. And you left a constable outside the door to make sure no
18 one went inside; isn't that correct?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And that was done, again, to preserve the integrity of the
21 items that were being taken by you, right?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And some day presented in a courtroom; isn't that correct?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. So the photographing and the tagging and the sealing of
3372
1 items is critical to your work as an investigator; isn't that
2 correct?
3 A. That's correct, yes.
4 Q. Now, you were working along with Scotland Yard; isn't that
5 correct?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. And Scotland Yard prides itself in the professional manner
8 in which it goes about conducting an investigation; isn't that
9 correct?
10 A. Yes, you could say that, yes.
11 MR. RICCO: I have no further questions. Thank you
12 very much, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Anything further of this witness?
14 MR. KARAS: No, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Thank you.
16 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, one, two questions.
17 CROSS-EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. SCHMIDT:
19 Q. Did you take photographs of each room prior to the search?
20 A. Yes. I personally didn't. A photographer.
21 Q. Was there a photographer from the team --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- that came and did the search?
24 Your answer is yes?
25 A. Yes.
3373
1 Q. And then after you completed the search, you also took
2 photographs?
3 A. There were photographs taken, yes.
4 MR. SCHMIDT: Thank you.
5 THE COURT: Thank you, constable. You may step down.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 (Witness excuse)
8 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, the government calls
9 Detective Constable Peter Williams.
10 PETER JAMES WILLIAMS,
11 called as a witness by the government,
12 having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
13 DEPUTY CLERK: Please state your full name.
14 THE WITNESS: My full name is Peter James Williams,
15 W-I-L-L-I-A-M-S.
16 DEPUTY CLERK: Thank you.
17 DIRECT EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. KARAS:
19 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
20 A. Good afternoon.
21 Q. If you could tell us how you are employed.
22 A. I'm employed as a detective constable with the Greater
23 Manchester Police in England.
24 Q. And can you tell us how you were employed in September of
25 1998?
3374
1 A. Sure. I was employed, I was a psychologist to the
2 antiterrorist branch, New Scotland Yard, in England.
3 Q. And did there come a time that you participated in the
4 search of the premises known as 38 Waldo Road and a vehicle in
5 the vicinity of Waldo Road?
6 A. I did, sir.
7 Q. Can you tell us what exactly your role was during that
8 search?
9 A. My role was a forensics science advisor and exhibits
10 officer.
11 Q. Sir, I'm going to approach you with what's marked in
12 evidence as Exhibit 1608 and ask that you take a look at it.
13 Could you just tell us what number is marked for
14 Waldo Road on this map.
15 A. Yes, sir. It's number one.
16 Q. Whose residence and whose vehicle did you search in
17 September of 1998?
18 A. A man known as Ibrahim Eidarous.
19 Q. And with respect to the premises, can you describe the
20 premises for the jury, please?
21 A. Sure. It's in England we class as a mid-terraced house,
22 bathrooms upstairs and ground floor with kitchen. I'm not
23 sure what you call --
24 THE COURT: Could you keep your voice up, please.
25 Q. Could you say it again, please.
3375
1 A. Yes. It's a mid-terraced house with a living
2 accommodation, bedrooms upstairs, living room and kitchen
3 downstairs. I'm not too sure what you call them in America.
4 Q. And what about the vehicle?
5 A. Vehicle was a blue Nissan Bluebird four-door.
6 Q. Sir, I'm approaching with what have been marked for
7 identification as Exhibits 1500 and 1500-P and I'm going to
8 ask you take a look at them.
9 Can you tell us what Exhibit 1500 is?
10 A. Yes, sir. It's a name and address book.
11 Q. And how do you recognize it?
12 A. I recognize it by my exhibit number PJW stroke 6 my
13 handwriting and my signature.
14 Q. And can you tell us where it was that that item was seized
15 from?
16 A. It was seized from the handbag of Mr. Eidarous's wife.
17 Q. That was at 38 Waldo Road?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Can you tell us what 1500-P is?
20 A. It's a photograph copy of the address book.
21 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer 1500
22 and 1500-P.
23 THE COURT: Received.
24 (Government Exhibits 1500 and 1500-P received in
25 evidence)
3376
1 BY MR. KARAS:
2 Q. Sir, I'm going to approach with what have been marked for
3 identification as Government Exhibit 1501-I.D. and 1501.
4 Can you tell us what 1501-I.D. is?
5 A. It's recorded as miscellaneous papers and a Casio 32KB
6 organizer.
7 Q. And 1501?
8 A. That, sir, is the Casio organizer.
9 Q. And where was 1501 pulled from?
10 A. Sorry, sir?
11 Q. Where was 1501 pulled from?
12 A. It's from -- this originated from the same exhibits.
13 Q. And how do you recognize those exhibits?
14 A. I recognize it by my exhibit number PJW stroke 201, my
15 handwriting and my signature.
16 Q. And where were those items found?
17 A. They were found inside the vehicle inside the central
18 console to the rear of the handbrake.
19 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer 1501.
20 THE COURT: Received.
21 (Government Exhibit 1501 received in evidence)
22 BY MR. KARAS:
23 Q. Sir, I'm going to approach with what have been marked for
24 identification as Exhibits 1502-I.D. and 1503, 1504, 1506,
25 1507, 15 --
3377
1 MR. KARAS: One moment, your Honor.
2 (Pause)
3 Q. We'll come back to that exhibit.
4 I'm going to approach with what have been premarked
5 for identification as Government Exhibits 1528-I.D. and 1528,
6 1529 and 1530. Sir, if you could tell us what 1528-I.D. is?
7 A. Yes, sir, it's recorded as miscellaneous papers.
8 Q. And how do you recognize that exhibit?
9 A. I recognize it by my exhibit number PJW stoke 209, my
10 handwriting and my signature.
11 Q. And can you tell us where the documents contained within
12 1528-I.D. were found?
13 A. Sure. I recovered them from the rear boot of the vehicle.
14 I think you call them trunk in America.
15 Q. The trunk?
16 A. Trunk, yes.
17 Q. And how is it that those exhibits are packaged, 1528-I.D.
18 A. I'm sorry, sir?
19 Q. How is it that they are packaged, 1528-I.D., just for the
20 record?
21 A. Packaged inside this exhibit bag.
22 Is that okay? Yeah.
23 Q. And can you tell us about where 1528, 1529 and 1530 came
24 from?
25 A. Yes, these documents were recovered from 1528-I.D.
3378
1 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer
2 Exhibits 1528, 1529 and 1530.
3 THE COURT: Received.
4 (Government Exhibits 1528, 1529 and 1530 received in
5 evidence)
6 BY MR. KARAS:
7 Q. I'll start, sir, by showing you what has been marked for
8 identification once again as 1502-I.D., and for now I'll show
9 you what have been premarked as Exhibits 1503, 1504, 1506,
10 1507, 1509, 1510, 1512, 1514, 1516, 1517, 1524, 1526A and
11 1527.
12 Now, with respect to 1502 I.D., do you recognize that
13 exhibit?
14 A. I do, sir, yes.
15 Q. How do you recognize it?
16 A. Again, I recognize it by my Exhibit No. PJW stroke 206, my
17 handwriting and my signature.
18 Q. Can you just describe for us what that exhibit is?
19 A. Sure. It's two blue folders containing miscellaneous
20 documents.
21 Q. And where were those blue folders found?
22 A. Again we found in the rear boot -- trunk -- of the
23 vehicle.
24 Q. And this is Mr. Eidarous's vehicle?
25 A. Yes.
3379
1 Q. Now, with respect to the first exhibit there you have, I
2 believe it's 1503?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. 1503 -- well, if you could just read out the exhibits and
5 tell us where they are from.
6 A. Yes, sir. It's in Arabic. It's obviously dated Thursday,
7 the 9th of July, 1998, issue 11340.
8 Q. Okay, just read the numbers and tell us generally -- well,
9 let me ask you this. The documents you have in your hand
10 there now?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Where did you derive those documents from? Where did you
13 find them?
14 A. I originated them from the master Exhibit PJW stroke 206,
15 which is 1502-I.D.
16 Q. And I'm now going to also approach with what have been
17 premarked for identification as 1502, 1505, 1508, 1511, 1518,
18 1520, 1523, 1525, 1526B, 1522, 1519, 1515A, 1515B, and 1513.
19 With respect to that second list of exhibits I just
20 read out and handed to you, can you tell us where those were
21 found?
22 A. Again, they were recovered from PJW 206, 1502-I.D.
23 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer
24 Exhibits 1502 through 1514, 1515A and B through 1525, with the
25 exception of 1521, and then 1526A and B and 1527.
3380
1 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, I have an objection that
2 may be resolved. May we approach or discuss this in the back?
3 (Continued on next page)
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3381
1 (At the sidebar)
2 MR. SCHMIDT: There are a couple of exhibits that I
3 do have an objection to as to relevancy. However, the
4 documents that I have are in the PL -- PWJ form.
5 MR. KARAS: PJW form.
6 MR. SCHMIDT: PJW form for this witness. I'm unable
7 to identify the documents because I don't have them as these
8 specific exhibits.
9 THE COURT: We'll adjourn until tomorrow.
10 (Continued on next page)
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3382
1 (In open court)
2 THE COURT: There are some mechanical problems with
3 the numbers of the exhibits and it's almost 4:30, so we'll
4 resolve it without wasting your time. And we are adjourned
5 until tomorrow morning, and please remember not to read,
6 listen to, watch or discuss anything about this case. And
7 have a pleasant evening.
8 (Jury not present)
9 THE COURT: Detective Williams, you may step down.
10 (Witness excused)
11 I have received requests to charge on behalf of
12 defendant Al-'Owhali and I have not received --
13 MR. RICCO: Your Honor, you should be receiving --
14 There it is now.
15 MR. DRATEL: You have it now.
16 MR. RICCO: I think he timed that appropriately.
17 THE COURT: All right. Now insofar as the relevancy
18 objection is concerned, should we adjourn until 9:30 tomorrow
19 morning?
20 MR. SCHMIDT: Yes, your Honor. I'm going to talk
21 with the government and see if we can resolve some of this
22 overnight.
23 THE COURT: All right. In any event, if not
24 resolved, we'll convene at 9:30 tomorrow morning.
25 Anything else?
3383
1 MR. RICCO: Yes, Judge. One other additional request
2 to charge will be E-mailed to your chambers by 5:00.
3 THE COURT: Very well.
4 All right, then we are adjourned until 9:30 tomorrow
5 morning.
6 (Adjourned to 9:30 a.m. on March 27, 2001)
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3384
1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION
2 Witness D X RD RX
3 MITCHELL HOLLARS........3300 3307 3320
4 ABIGAIL SEDA............3322 3326 3328
5 PAUL LESLIE WEBBER......3349 3361
6 3369
7 PETER JAMES WILLIAMS....3373
8 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS
9 Exhibit No. Received
10 617 ........................................3300
11 368 ........................................3300
12 659 ........................................3302
13 615 A-LP ...................................3304
14 617T .......................................3322
15 364C .......................................3324
16 365C .......................................3324
17 595B .......................................3325
18 158, 1650, 1675, 1676, 1677, 1677-T ........3333
19 153 ........................................3341
20 113 ........................................3343
21 1608 .......................................3351
22 1600 .......................................3352
23 1601, 1602, 1638 and 1639 ..................3353
24 1621 .......................................3355
25 1622, 1623, 1624 and 1625 ..................3356
3385
1 1603, 1604, 1605, 1606 and 1607 ............3356
2 1627 .......................................3357
3 1628, 1628A and 1628-P .....................3358
4 1629 .......................................3359
5 Wildcard not found: [Exhibit]*[received].....3359
6 1631 .......................................3360
7 1632 .......................................3360
8 1633, 1634, 1635 and 1636 ..................3361
9 1500 and 1500-P ............................3375
10 1501 .......................................3376
11 1528, 1529 and 1530 ........................3378
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