18 April 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of
New York; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 31 of the trial, 18 April 2001.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm
4218
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
4 v. S(7)98CR1023
5 USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,
6 Defendants.
7 ------------------------------x
8
New York, N.Y.
9 April 18, 2001
9:45 a.m.
10
11
12 Before:
13 HON. LEONARD B. SAND,
14 District Judge
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
4219
1 APPEARANCES
2 MARY JO WHITE
United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
BY: PATRICK FITZGERALD
4 KENNETH KARAS
Assistant United States Attorneys
5
6 SAM A. SCHMIDT
JOSHUA DRATEL
7 Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage
8 ANTHONY L. RICCO
EDWARD D. WILFORD
9 CARL J. HERMAN
Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh
10
FREDRICK H. COHN
11 DAVID P. BAUGH
LAURA GASIOROWSKI
12 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali
13 DAVID STERN
DAVID RUHNKE
14 Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed
15
16 (In open court; jury not present)
17 THE COURT: Is there anything that has to be
18 addressed before the jury comes in this morning?
19 MR. SCHMIDT: Yes, your Honor, there is. I am going
20 to make available to the government this morning a number of
21 exhibits that I do not plan to publish to the jury now, but
22 I'm going to be asking the witness to identify them, so at a
23 later time when we resolve all the issues that I know the
24 government is going to have, that we don't need to recall this
25 witness.
4220
1 The second thing is that a number of those exhibits
2 and other documents that --
3 THE COURT: Just stop there. But you are going to
4 move them in evidence?
5 MR. SCHMIDT: I'm not going to move them in evidence.
6 THE COURT: Have the witness identify them, but not
7 move them in evidence.
8 MR. SCHMIDT: Basically lay a foundation for it so I
9 will be able to submit them in evidence without the necessity
10 of recalling that witness and give the opportunity to the
11 government to cross-examine on foundation aspects of the
12 documents.
13 Secondly, having worked hard in preparing all those
14 documents, preparing our transcripts, and trying to do
15 stipulations with different witnesses, it has become apparent
16 that to put it all together, including the need to lay a
17 foundation for witnesses the government does not want to call,
18 that we are finding it difficult to have everything prepared
19 in a manner to give the government adequate notice of which
20 exhibits and taped conversations that we want to put in.
21 I am obviously aware of your Honor's statements
22 yesterday. We had hoped with the difficulty the government
23 had that we could have it more organized and prepared. It has
24 become apparent that the government's cross-examination of
25 this witness will be relatively short, and there is another
4221
1 witnesses that we have, and prepared to go forward with, we
2 may have a gap on Thursday or at best our presentation will be
3 highly disjointed.
4 Therefore, in order for us, we have a number of
5 witnesses outside the state who are coming in for Monday. I
6 am requesting that, and I hesitate to make this request, but I
7 think it is beneficial to the jury, really beneficial to our
8 team, that we not sit on Thursday and we're allowed to have
9 four days which we will be working all four days to get our
10 material in order, give the government sufficient notice and
11 copies of the materials, allow them to review it so we can
12 have a smooth and proper presentation next week of the defense
13 case.
14 As your Honor is also aware because of Somali issues
15 I've been on the phone more than I had hopped, which takes up
16 a lot of time. So my application at this time is for us not
17 to sit on Thursday.
18 THE COURT: There is another alternative, and that is
19 you've taken one witness out of sequence already, and that is
20 utilize Thursday for some other defendant.
21 I've been handed a note from a juror. I want to
22 thank you for your patience and flexibility in allowing us to
23 leave earlier yesterday. The earlier time helped make
24 circumstances easier and smoother. Thanks very much.
25 Is there another defendant who has a witness who can
4222
1 proceed on Thursday without any great hardship?
2 MR. RICCO: Judge, the problem is that based on
3 representations that we had --
4 THE COURT: If the answer is no, the answer is no.
5 MR. RICCO: No.
6 THE COURT: No one?
7 MR. RICCO: Judge, I think we are the only ones that
8 are putting forth a defense case, we being Odeh, and even
9 though we do have witnesses ready to go as early as Monday and
10 Tuesday, we didn't think it was going to be an issue at this
11 time.
12 THE COURT: Does the government have any view on
13 that?
14 MR. FITZGERALD: No.
15 THE COURT: Is it a certainty that you won't have
16 anything for Thursday, because if I notify the jury it enables
17 them to make plans. I believe it enables defense --
18 MR. SCHMIDT: I'm sorry, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: They have to have a certain number of
20 days to know this or else.
21 MR. SCHMIDT: I understand that.
22 THE COURT: You're saying that you don't want to sit
23 tomorrow?
24 MR. SCHMIDT: Yes.
25 THE COURT: I will allow that, and only because of
4223
1 the unexpected circumstances that you stated to the Court in
2 ex-parte conference.
3 All right. Does the government have any objection to
4 the witness identifying documents?
5 MR. FITZGERALD: No, if I could just see what they
6 are. It may be that if it's authentication we may stipulate
7 to it. I don't want anything prejudicial discussed.
8 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, it is simply going to be
9 identifying a number of documents taken and copied and other
10 documents as to for El Hage as to whose handwriting he
11 recognizes and whose signature he recognizes. Those are the
12 only documents. That's the only thing I planned to do with
13 this witness, except for one particular document which is
14 indicated to me that he prepared.
15 MR. FITZGERALD: If I could see them.
16 MR. SCHMIDT: I'm trying to separate them now, your
17 Honor. One additional tape recording --
18 THE COURT: You also have a briefing issue.
19 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, we did not receive the
20 government's until yesterday in court. We're trying to do
21 research. Tonight I'll be writing it.
22 MR. SCHMIDT: We have one additional that we're going
23 to need, so we'll be able to give the government the
24 documents.
25 THE COURT: Why don't you give the government the
4224
1 documents you want to have the witness identify and let me
2 know when you're ready. And since it's tomorrow, I think I
3 will wait until this afternoon before telling the jury that
4 they are not sitting tomorrow.
5 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, we greatly appreciate that.
6 THE COURT: Let me know when you're ready.
7 (Recess)
8 (In open court; jury not present)
9 THE COURT: The jury is on their way.
10 MR. SCHMIDT: Just briefly, there is a photograph I
11 was going to offer and have the witness make some
12 identification but not offer it into evidence at this time of
13 certain children in front of the house.
14 The government has agreed to stipulate as to the
15 identity of the children and the location of the photograph
16 was taken, reserving its right to object to relevance at a
17 later time. It was not be properly connected yet without
18 other witnesses, and, obviously, I don't want to bring this
19 witness back.
20 MR. FITZGERALD: That's correct, Judge. We have
21 probably a strident three or four objections but not an
22 authentication one.
23 MR. SCHMIDT: Thank you.
24
25
4225
1 (Jury present)
2 THE COURT: The witness may resume the stand, please.
3 Mr. Schmidt, you may resume.
4 Mr. Odeh, the Court reminds you you are still under
5 oath.
6 MOHAMED ALI ODEH, resumed.
7 DIRECT EXAMINATION(Continued)
8 BY MR. SCHMIDT:
9 Q Good morning.
10 A Good morning to you.
11 Q I'm going to show you a number of documents and ask you a
12 few questions concerning the documents.
13 THE COURT: Please don't volunteer anything. Just
14 answer the direct question that will be asked.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 MR. SCHMIDT: I apologize, your Honor.
17 (Pause)
18 MR. SCHMIDT: Before we get to those documents I have
19 one that I can show Mr. Odeh.
20 Q Let me show you what is marked defense exhibit WEHX-JJ.
21 I apologize. It is marked JJJ.
22 MR. FITZGERALD: No objection. We can receive this
23 document in evidence.
24 MR. SCHMIDT: Thank you. Can we publish it then to
25 the jury.
4226
1 THE COURT: JJJ received in evidence.
2 (Defendant's Exhibit WEHX-JJJ received in evidence)
3 Q You have that in front of you and you have it on the
4 screen. Do you recognize this document?
5 Do you recognize that piece of paper?
6 A Yes, I know this.
7 Q What is that piece of paper?
8 A This is was preparation, this is a paper I do about
9 preparation for Black Giant and the business and how much each
10 body paid.
11 Q Now, on the right hand, on the top on the right-hand side
12 it said paid by, and under that it's M A and WE. Can you tell
13 us what the M A stands for?
14 A Mohamed Ali.
15 Q The WE?
16 A Wadih El Hage.
17 Q Under the letters K small SH what does that stand for?
18 A Kenya shilling.
19 Q The numbers that are below that, what are they?
20 A Number of Kenya shilling which we paid.
21 Q Now, I note that there are different names under the area
22 of subject. You see the different names like, for example,
23 after tourmaline, it's David. About six lines, seven lines
24 down?
25 A Yes.
4227
1 Q Who is that David?
2 A David Muswa.
3 Q And below that is amethyst there is a Simon. Who is
4 Simon?
5 A Simon is the, is the guy who travels to Zambia with
6 Mr. Wadih.
7 Q Under Simon it says trip to Machakos. Where is Machakos?
8 A Sorry, Machakos.
9 Q Where is Machakos?
10 A It is in part of Kenya, one district in Kenya.
11 Q Now, next to March there is an entry, Ibrahim office. Who
12 is that Ibrahim?
13 Let me ask this question. Who is the person who paid
14 the money to Ibrahim's office?
15 A He had his own office. He was buying amethyst, I think I
16 think one office in Standard building.
17 Q Below that SHK Suliman?
18 A Yes, Sheik Suliman.
19 Q And under H there is the name Joseph?
20 A Brother of Simon.
21 Q Under J David?
22 A The same person, David Mutwa.
23 Q Now, under January 6th it says Regis and Ahmed. Do you
24 recall who they are?
25 A Yes, this is two person who had specialist in the stones
4228
1 for selection of the stone.
2 Q What was the purpose of keeping this list?
3 A The balancing sheet this one.
4 Q Who actually prepared this list?
5 A Myself.
6 Q I'm going to show you now a number of exhibits that are
7 marked WEHX-J53 -- excuse me. J93, J94, J95, J96, J98, J108,
8 J120, J121, J122, J124, J126, J127, and J131.
9 Now, I ask you to look at I believe the first one on
10 top which is J93. Are you familiar with Mr. El Hage's
11 signature?
12 A Yes, it is his signature.
13 Q You're familiar with it in the Arabic language?
14 A Yes, he send for me some letters and he sign in this way.
15 Q Are you familiar with his signature in the English
16 language?
17 A What?
18 Q Are you familiar with how he writes his name when he's
19 writing in the English language as well?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Are you generally familiar with his handwriting?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Now, I ask you to look at WEHX-J93 to look at the bottom
24 which has a circle on that. Whose signature do you recognize
25 that to be?
4229
1 A 93?
2 Q Yes.
3 A Wadih.
4 Q I ask you to look at the letter in general, the body of
5 the letter, and whose handwriting does that appear to be?
6 A You see it seem to be his handwriting. You know I'm not
7 specialist in letters, but to me it is his handwriting.
8 Q Now, I ask you to look at now WEX-J94, the next one. Why
9 don't you put down the one that you looked at, turn it over
10 and put it on the side so we don't get them mixed up.
11 Now, that's a document that has a number 2 at the
12 bottom; is that correct? 1 on top and 2 at the bottom; is
13 that right?
14 (Witness consults with interpreter)
15 A Yes, correct.
16 Q Now, whose handwriting do you recognize this to be?
17 A Yes, Mr. Wadih's.
18 JUROR NO. 9: Excuse me, Judge, I need a moment.
19 THE COURT: You need a moment. You want to take a
20 recess?
21 JUROR NO. 9: Yes.
22 THE COURT: Sure.
23 (Recess)
24 (Juror No. 9 returns)
25 JUROR NO. 9: Thank you, your Honor.
4230
1 THE COURT: Mr. Schmidt, you may proceed.
2 Q I think we're up to exhibit WEHX--J95. Do you see the one
3 that we're talking about, Mr. Odeh?
4 A The subject?
5 Q The document?
6 A 1 and 2?
7 Q J95 at the bottom. You see that one?
8 A Yes, I saw it.
9 Q Okay. Now, whose signature does that appear to be at the
10 bottom?
11 A Wadia.
12 Q Whose handwriting does that appear to be on the base of
13 the letter?
14 A That seem to me his handwriting.
15 Q Now, I ask you to take a look at what's been marked as J96
16 in the upper right-hand corner, the next document. Now, whose
17 handwriting does that appear to be on that document?
18 A Wadia also.
19 Q I ask you to look at the next document which is WEHX-J98?
20 A Yes.
21 THE COURT: Is that the question that is going to be
22 asked with respect to each of these?
23 MR. SCHMIDT: That is correct.
24 THE COURT: Suppose you ask him with respect to all
25 of these whether he can recognize the handwriting. Do we have
4231
1 to do this all one at a time?
2 MR. SCHMIDT: I can probably put some together.
3 Q I ask you to take a look at that exhibit. Whose
4 handwriting does that appear to be on that letter?
5 A 98, Wadia.
6 Q Now, I ask you to look at now 108 and 119. Look at both
7 of those. I ask whose signature at the bottom appears on both
8 of those letters?
9 A Wadia's signature.
10 Q And the body of the letter --
11 A Also Wadih.
12 Q Please let me finish, sir. Whose handwriting does that
13 appear to be on both of those letters?
14 A Wadih.
15 Q Thank you. I'm going to hand you up a number of other
16 exhibits. They are WEHX-J1, J92, J132, J133, J134, J135,
17 J136, J144, J149 slash 150; J363, and J -- withdrawn, J362,
18 J363, and J364.
19 THE COURT: The question with respect to those is
20 what?
21 MR. SCHMIDT: Is going to be the same questions, your
22 Honor, but I am going to ask first as to some of the other
23 exhibits. I will try to combine the ones that have both, are
24 similar.
25 Q As to J120, whose signature does that appear to be at the
4232
1 bottom?
2 A Wadih's signature.
3 Q The body of the letter, whose handwriting does that appear
4 to be?
5 A Wadih.
6 Q I'm going to ask you to look at new J121, the document
7 that's mostly in English. Excuse me. The document in
8 English. I ask you to look at the bottom of the English
9 handwriting of Wadih El Hage, the signature. Who does that
10 appear to be?
11 A Wadih El Hage.
12 Q Now, I ask you to look at J122, 124, those two documents
13 and I ask you to look at the bottom and tell me whose
14 signature that appears to be?
15 A Wadih, yes.
16 Q I ask you to look at the body of the letters. Whose
17 manned writing does that appear to be?
18 A Wadih.
19 Q I ask you to look at exhibit 126 and 127 -- excuse me --
20 J126 and J127. That's numbers and writing in English. Whose
21 handwriting does that appear to be to you?
22 A Wadih.
23 Q I ask you to look at -- do you have J1 in front of you?
24 Do you have J1 in front of you?
25 A Yes, J131.
4233
1 Q Do you have J1?
2 A Yes, I have J1.
3 Q Okay. Could you tell me whose handwriting that appears to
4 be?
5 A This is Wadia.
6 Q Do you have J92 in front of you?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Whose signature --
9 A Wadih.
10 Q -- appears on that?
11 A Wadia's signature.
12 Q And whose handwriting generally appears on that document?
13 A Can you repeat what you say?
14 Q Whose handwriting?
15 A Wadih's.
16 Q Thank you.
17 Now, I ask you to look at now J131 and J132 and J133
18 and J134, and I ask you whose handwriting do these documents
19 appear to be, in whose handwriting do these documents appear
20 to be?
21 A All of it, all of this Wadih handwriting.
22 Q Now, I ask you to look at J135. And whose signature
23 appears at the bottom of the page?
24 A Wadih's signature.
25 Q Whose handwriting appears on the rest of the letter?
4234
1 A Same, Wadih.
2 Q I ask you to look at J136. And whose handwriting appears
3 on that document?
4 A Wadih handwriting.
5 Q I ask you to look at J144, a document that's in English.
6 Mostly in English. Whose handwriting does this appear to be?
7 A Wadih.
8 Q Whose signature appears at the bottom?
9 A Also Wadih.
10 Q I ask you to look at document 149/150 and I ask you whose
11 handwriting appears on the upper portion, not the typewritten
12 but the upper portion of the document, that's a longer sheet.
13 A The handwriting of Wadih.
14 Q I ask you now to look at J362, 363, and 364. Whose
15 handwriting appears on those documents?
16 A Wadih handwriting.
17 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, at this time we wish to
18 read one hopefully last transcript that Mr. -- that is exhibit
19 WEX-W35, and the English transcription is WEX-W35-T.
20 MR. FITZGERALD: No objection.
21 THE COURT: W35T received.
22 (Defendant's Exhibits WEX-W35 and WEX-W35-T received
23 in evidence)
24 MR. DRATEL: Mr. Larsen will read the receptionist
25 and I will read the part of Wadih and Mr. Larsen will also
4235
1 read Simon as well.
2 THE COURT: The date of the conversation?
3 MR. DRATEL: The date of the conversation is April
4 11, 1997.
5 MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Dratel, we'll get it on the screen
6 in just a minute.
7 (Pause)
8 THE COURT: Why don't you read it without the
9 display. There it is.
10 RECEPTIONIST: Service desk. May I help you.
11 WADIH: Good afternoon. May I speak to Simon, room
12 319, please.
13 RECEPTIONIST: Simon.
14 WADIH: Yes.
15 RECEPTIONIST: Okay, but your voice is low.
16 WADIH: It's far.
17 SIMON: Hello.
18 WADIH: Hello Simon.
19 SIMON: How are you?
20 WADIH: Fine. How are you?
21 SIMON: How are you my friend?
22 WADIH: Fine, fine. How are you?
23 SIMON: I'm here but I've been stranded for almost
24 four days, my friend.
25 WADIH: Why? What's happened?
4236
1 SIMON: This guy from Italy is not back. This man he
2 left. He left here only $200 and he went out. I left, I
3 found the money here in the hotel.
4 WADIH: Uh-huh.
5 SIMON: Now I'm still waiting. They say he might
6 come today.
7 WADIH: Okay.
8 SIMON: So if he don't come today I have to leave
9 tomorrow, very early in the morning.
10 WADIH: Uh-huh.
11 SIMON: And arrive there (inaudible) evening.
12 WADIH: Okay.
13 SIMON: Because I cannot stay for more, the hotel
14 will still charge and I (inaudible) I tell them I pay them
15 when I get my money from the guy from Italy.
16 WADIH: I see. Where is he?
17 SIMON: So I'm very sorry for not ringing. I had no
18 money.
19 WADIH: I see.
20 SIMON: I just rang to your wife and gave you the
21 number so that you might, so that you ring back to me.
22 WADIH: Yes, yes.
23 SIMON: Sure, how is Mr. Mohamed?
24 WADIH: He's okay. He was waiting for your call for
25 a long time.
4237
1 SIMON: Yes, I had, you know, I had no money. I just
2 arrived here without money and I found $200 here for me.
3 WADIH: Uh-huh.
4 SIMON: And I didn't spend even the money I'm still
5 holding the money.
6 WADIH: Okay.
7 SIMON: So that if I don't get more money I have to
8 leave tomorrow morning.
9 WADIH: Yes.
10 SIMON: To come and arrive there in the evening.
11 WADIH: So when are (inaudible) those Italian guy.
12 SIMON: The Italian man we rang through the embassy.
13 WADIH: Uh-huh.
14 SIMON: They say the problem of, in the embassy, I
15 mean, you know, he works for the embassy.
16 WADIH: Yes.
17 SIMON: Now they tell me they are expecting him not
18 before the end of the month. I say I am too poor, I don't
19 have money.
20 WADIH: Uh-huh.
21 SIMON: They say they are going to fax him. If they
22 can allow, if he tell them to him to pay here they can get
23 money for me.
24 WADIH: I see.
25 SIMON: So if I will be in Nairobi I will ring them
4238
1 in the embassy.
2 WADIH: Uh-huh.
3 SIMON: If the money arrives I just come collect from
4 the embassy.
5 WADIH: Is the embassy in Nairobi?
6 SIMON: No, the embassy here in Kumpala he work here.
7 WADIH: Okay.
8 SIMON: Yeah.
9 WADIH: So why do you want to ring them from Nairobi?
10 Why don't you do this while you're over there?
11 SIMON: No, I've already running here.
12 WADIH: Uh-huh.
13 SIMON: They say let us wait for one week.
14 WADIH: One week.
15 SIMON: Yeah. I should wait for one week, because
16 they make a fax for him.
17 WADIH: Uh-huh.
18 SIMON: Through their, through the headquarters in
19 Italy, in Rome.
20 WADIH: Yeah.
21 SIMON: Now they say I should wait for one week and
22 we get the reply, if we say they could pay the money.
23 WADIH: Uh-huh.
24 SIMON: They could give me the money. It's okay.
25 WADIH: Okay.
4239
1 SIMON: Yeah, but for the other guy who had the other
2 money.
3 WADIH: Uh-huh.
4 SIMON: He left $200.
5 WADIH: Uh-huh.
6 SIMON: Which he says the rest the rest is $250
7 remaining with him because it was about 28,000, 26,000.
8 WADIH: I see.
9 SIMON: Kenyan shillings.
10 WADIH: Okay.
11 SIMON: Yeah. So I got the money and I don't like to
12 use it until I leave tomorrow.
13 WADIH: I see.
14 SIMON: If he is not arriving back.
15 WADIH: Okay.
16 SIMON: Yeah, but I have to come back here on Tuesday
17 here in Kumpala, I am just coming here because of family
18 problems and meet you also.
19 WADIH: I see.
20 SIMON: And I give you what I have.
21 WADIH: I see.
22 SIMON: Yeah.
23 WADIH: Okay.
24 SIMON: Sure. I'll be leaving tomorrow morning, hey?
25 WADIH: You're leaving tomorrow morning?
4240
1 SIMON: But can you ring me here tonight.
2 WADIH: Hum?
3 SIMON: Can you ring tonight?
4 WADIH: For what?
5 SIMON: For what, no, I was thinking you ring tonight
6 to confirm whether I leaving tomorrow morning.
7 WADIH: Okay. Well, I'll ring it's okay but whenever
8 you get to Nairobi you call me.
9 SIMON: Oh, so it's okay. Getting Nairobi I'll call
10 you and you come and meet me in the evening.
11 WADIH: Uh huh.
12 SIMON: Because I have to pass direct to home. I
13 cannot sleep in Nairobi.
14 WADIH: I see.
15 SIMON: It's better you wait me at the bus.
16 WADIH: Where are you, I don't know when the bus will
17 come in, sometimes it's delayed one hour, half and her, one
18 hour.
19 SIMON: A Kumpa bus, no a Kumpa bus normally arrives
20 there at 5:30.
21 WADIH: Hm. In the evening?
22 SIMON: Yeah, most it arrives there at 5, 35:30.
23 WADIH: In the evening or in the morning?
24 SIMON: In the evening. If I leave tomorrow very
25 early in the morning.
4241
1 WADIH: Uh-huh. Okay.
2 SIMON: Sure, it's better we meet.
3 WADIH: Yeah, if I'm not there, just call me and I'll
4 come to you.
5 SIMON: You'll come to me?
6 WADIH: Yeah.
7 SIMON: Okay, thank you.
8 WADIH: Okay.
9 SIMON: Bye.
10 BY MR. SCHMIDT:
11 Q Did you have any conversations relating to stones with
12 Mr. El Hage after his first trip to Pakistan?
13 A Can you repeat your question, pleas?
14 Q Did you talk about any stones with Mr. El Hage after he
15 returned from his first trip to Pakistan?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And could you tell us what that conversation was about?
18 A If you refer to my previous communication from Hong Kong
19 with El Hage I ask him about tourmaline, and I told him to
20 contact David or Ali. When Mr. El Hage went to Pakistan he
21 brought with him some sample of tourmaline and other stone
22 blue lapaze.
23 Q That pronounced, spelled L-A-P-A-Z-E?
24 A Yes, blue lapaze.
25 Q Blue. And what did you tell him about the tourmaline?
4242
1 A It is not according to my specification.
2 Q And what discussions did you have about the lapaze?
3 A He tried to, he say there is some lot for some people in
4 Pakistan, and he want to sell it.
5 Q And there was understanding -- was there an understanding
6 the second time he went to Pakistan in the summer of --
7 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, leading.
8 Q -- in the summer of 199 --
9 MR. SCHMIDT: Excuse me?
10 THE COURT: There is an objection. Complete your
11 question.
12 Q Was there an understanding with you between you and Mr. El
13 Hage at the time that you went to summer of 1997 that there
14 was going to be some efforts to obtain the lapaze?
15 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to leading.
16 THE COURT: It is leading.
17 Q Were there any discussions with you with Mr. El Hage
18 concerning attempting to obtain the lapaze blue?
19 MR. FITZGERALD: Same objection.
20 THE COURT: As an amateur gemologist I object also
21 I think you're talking about lapis.
22 MR. SCHMIDT: It's think it's lapis, I understand
23 that and I think Mr. Odeh pronounces it lapaze, but I think
24 your Honor is correct.
25 THE COURT: Ask the question nonleading.
4243
1 Q Were there discussions concerning stones before you went
2 to the Far East and Mr. El Hage went to Pakistan?
3 A I say yes.
4 Q And what was that discussion?
5 A About he brought some sample of tourmaline and I reject
6 that sample and he say that consignment in Karachi exact in
7 Karachi about lapaze, and if you find the market for that
8 stone and a stone dealer for that I have to look for market.
9 Q Now, did you at times when you were dealing and looking
10 for stones in Kenya or the area around Kenya, travel with
11 Mr. El Hage to different dealers and mining locations at
12 times?
13 A We travel one for one stone.
14 Q What stone?
15 A One stone.
16 Q What type of stone was that?
17 A Moonstone, M double O-N.
18 Q Now, were you aware --
19 A Sorry, also for chrysoprase when we go for chrysoprase.
20 If you have listen to previous conversation Mr. Daniels call
21 him to come go to bring the samples.
22 Q Now, were you aware of any particular projects that Mr. El
23 Hage was working on for his nongovernmental organization?
24 A What you mean about it?
25 Q Were you aware of a project that he was discussing
4244
1 about --
2 A Yes, he telling me that he is making project for fighting
3 mosquitos in Kenya.
4 Q Who was that discussion -- were you present with the
5 discussion with another person?
6 A With Dr. Masoy, and Mr., Dr. Masoy ask him if he make that
7 same project in his location.
8 Q Now, did you have a discussion with Mr. El Hage concerning
9 registering his nongovernmental organization in a place other
10 than Kenya?
11 A I ask him why he did not this company in America itself
12 because America has a lot of money and has a lot of
13 nongovernment can assist you in your projects.
14 Q What did Mr. El Hage say to you?
15 A He say that he will try.
16 Q Did he indicate that he was having some difficulty?
17 A Difficulties in Kenya, of course.
18 Q What kind of difficulties in Kenya?
19 A Money problems. For that he have to work in a store, and
20 he have to work in other thing to collect some money for his
21 family.
22 Q Now, in Mr. El Hage's office -- withdrawn.
23 You were in Mr. El Hage's office own a number of
24 occasions, is that correct?
25 (Witness consults interpreter)
4245
1 A His office and his house for that when I was there
2 receiving my call I go.
3 Q Did you see in the office any Arabic newspapers?
4 A Sorry, I couldn't remember.
5 Q Have you ever heard of the newspaper al Queds?
6 A I saw it in New York before yesterday but I did not buy
7 it.
8 Q Did you ever see it before then?
9 A No.
10 Q Have you ever seen it in Kenya?
11 A No, but there is Alhya in Kenya it is come Alhya I never
12 see al Queds.
13 Q Now, you know the name of Usama Bin Laden now, don't you?
14 A It is becoming a famous name in the newspapers now, but I
15 did not know him before this occasion.
16 Q When was the first time that you heard of the name of
17 Usama Bin Laden?
18 A When is come after the incident in Kenya about two, three
19 months. Usually I'm in the interested in news.
20 Q Well, did you see any coverage of Mr. Bin Laden in the
21 news prior to the bombing of the embassy in Kenya?
22 (Witness consults interpreter)
23 A No.
24 Q Now, the name, the word Sayed, is that, could that be a
25 name of a person?
4246
1 A It can be a name and it can be a nickname. If I say to
2 you Sayed Mohammed it means sir.
3 Q Sir or Mr. Mohammed?
4 A Or Mr., yes.
5 Q After Mr. El Hage was arrested in September of 1998 have
6 you had any contact with him at all?
7 A How I couldn't remember.
8 Q Have you had any telephone calls or letters from Mr. El
9 Hage?
10 A I couldn't remember how he can call also to make.
11 MR. SCHMIDT: Thank you. I have no further
12 questions, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Cross-examination, government,
14 Mr. Fitzgerald.
15 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Judge.
16 CROSS-EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
18 Q Good morning, sir.
19 A Good morning to you, sir.
20 Q My name is Pat6 Fitzgerald and I represent the government.
21 Please if you do not understand my questions, either because
22 of language or if I speak too fast, please just say so. Okay?
23 A Thank you very much.
24 Q Now, you've answered a number of questions. Let me start
25 with a couple of questions that you answered this morning.
4247
1 Regarding Mr. El Hage's handwriting, you are familiar
2 with Mr. El Hage's handwriting in English?
3 A Yes, not so familiar, because sometime he was writing
4 notes in English.
5 Q You're familiar with his handwriting in Arabic?
6 A Yes, because he sinned for me letter.
7 Q You're familiar with his signature in English?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And you're familiar with his signature in Arabic?
10 A Yes, because he sign in Arabic to me. I know it.
11 Q And this morning you were shown a number of documents,
12 defense exhibits which are to your left. Do you recall that?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And you recognized Mr. El Hage's handwriting on those
15 documents, correct?
16 A I told you I am not a specialist in clarifications of
17 writings, okay? But to me from the first sign to me, the sign
18 it is Wadih. The handwriting is similar to what letter I
19 receive for that it is his handwriting.
20 Q So that appears to you to be Mr. El Hage's handwriting on
21 those documents which bear defense exhibit stickers, correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Has anyone shown you any exhibits with yellow Government
24 Exhibit stickers on them, yellow stickers?
25 (Witness consults interpreter)
4248
1 A Sorry, no.
2 Q Why don't we display on the screen, 615A-C, Government
3 Exhibit.
4 MR. FITZGERALD: I apologize. I'll come back to the
5 correct number later.
6 Q With regard to WEHX-JJJ, which you should have in front of
7 you, which is the list of stones that is something you created
8 that is typewritten --
9 A Yes.
10 Q Could you tell us what year that is for? Can you tell
11 us -- it indicates the left the date says January, entries for
12 February and March, and goes back to March, February and
13 January. Do you know what year that is?
14 (Witness consults interpreter?
15 A 1997.
16 Q And if you look on that exhibit, and we can place it on
17 the Elmo, if you could focus February appears twice on that
18 exhibit. The second time February appears in the left column
19 under others, and it says under there March 20 visa, and then
20 beneath that it says February expenses, 500, and to the right
21 there is an X, correct?
22 Does that indicate that the expenses for Wadih El
23 Hage in February were 500 shillings.
24 (Witness consults interpreter)
25 A No, sorry. Maybe there is misunderstanding on that. This
4249
1 is a balancing sheet. At that time we are preparing two, for
2 that we have to prepare how much I pay and how much he pay.
3 The thing which is across it means my payment, my cash payment
4 for these items. The thing which is he crossed, his payment,
5 he pay for the company.
6 Q So did Mr. El Hage pay 500 Kenyan shillings in expenses in
7 February, if you look at the lower left corner of the screen?
8 A Where expenses now?
9 Q Under the word, others. Do you see the word others? If
10 you look at the screen it might be easier. It says under
11 others, it says David, and then there is a March 20 entry?
12 A David, yes.
13 Q Now, look two lines below it, it says February expenses?
14 A Yes, mean transport to give some people to go to come, to
15 you, yes.
16 Q That's 500 Kenyan shillings?
17 A Yeah of course 500, all this is Kenyan shillings.
18 Q The right column indicates the checkmark indicates it was
19 paid by WE, Wadih El Hage?
20 A Yeah, WE, Wadih El Hage.
21 Q So would that indicate that Wadih El Hage's expenses for
22 February, 1997 were 500 Kenyan shillings?
23 (Witness consults interpreter)
24 A No, sorry. If you will go ahead to the amethyst, amethyst
25 on 25th, 27, 27, and so on you find Wadih El Hage pay for
4250
1 Simon, ten thousand, okay? Trip to Machakos 1,500, telex and
2 telephone call to Simon, 700. Trip to Zambia, 44,000. This
3 is all paid by Mr. Wadih El Hage.
4 Q Good. That's what I'm trying to find out.
5 If we take his expenses before February 25, 1997, the
6 top column, the top expenses are all after February 25th,
7 correct?
8 A What?
9 Q Those expenses at the top of the page, the February 25th
10 and 27th are expenses paid by Mr. El Hage after February 25th
11 that concern a loan in Nairobi, a trip to Machakos,
12 M-A-C-H-A-K-O-S, telephone and telex expenses, and a trip to
13 Zambia, correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Besides that, the other listing for expenses for Mr. El
16 Hage in February, 1997, is at the bottom of page it shows an
17 expense of 500 Kenyan shillings, correct?
18 A 550 I think. 500, yes, it's 500.
19 Q And these would be Mr. El Hage's expenses in February 1997
20 for Black Giant, correct?
21 A Correct, yes.
22 Q And 500 Kenyan shillings, approximately how many dollars
23 would that be?
24 A About five dollars, six dollars.
25 Q Okay. Now we'll come back to that.
4251
1 You mentioned in your testimony the last couple of
2 days that there was a gentleman who asked you to get visas in
3 Kenya for two Sudanese men and that you contacted Wadih El
4 Hage as a result of that.
5 Do you recall that testimony?
6 A Yes, very clearly to me.
7 Q Okay. Let me show you what's been received in evidence as
8 Government Exhibit 604.
9 If we could display on the screen pages 1 and 2 of
10 604 which are passport-size photographs. If you could look at
11 the photographs displayed on the screen and tell us which, if
12 any, of those photographs are the two Sudanese gentlemen for
13 which you asked Wadih El Hage to get a visa?
14 A No one from these.
15 Q None of these?
16 A None.
17 Q And if you could now go back and look at those
18 photographs --
19 A No.
20 Q -- one at a time and tell us if you know any of these
21 people?
22 A No, I did not know anyone and it is not the people whom I
23 sent the faxes for him. No one from this at all.
24 Q So in your course of dealings with Wadih El Hage and Black
25 Giant business you've never met any of these people depicted
4252
1 in Government Exhibit 604, correct?
2 A I couldn't see any one of these faces at all. Sir, I want
3 to ask a question. The one, the small one in the left, this
4 is Wadih when he's small or what?
5 Q I'm not allowed to give answers, but after court today
6 we'll talk.
7 If we could go back to the exhibits, let me show you
8 what's been marked as Government Exhibit 437A. Can we put
9 that up on the screen 437A.
10 I just ask you to look at that document and in fact
11 I'll hand up a copy if you want to look at it. My only
12 question to you is whether or not you recognize the
13 handwriting on that document?
14 A The handwriting?
15 Q Yes?
16 A Definitely Wadih and his signature on the top.
17 Q Thank you, sir.
18 A Thank you.
19 Q Now, sir, are you familiar with the name Abdul Sabbur,
20 A-B-D-U-L, S-A-B-B-U-R?
21 A Sorry, you have to give me full name, because Abdul Sabbur
22 in Middle East you find one or two million people. The name
23 Mohammed is about 50 million. When you give me a name in
24 Arab's name or any name, give it full name. Abdul Sabbur, I
25 never hear one name in Abdul Sabbur in Kenya completely 15
4253
1 years.
2 Q Let me take that answer. You heard los of people called
3 Abdul Sabbur or no in Kenya?
4 A No, I never hear the name Abdul Sabbur. Maybe Abdallah,
5 yes, but Abdul Sabbur I never hear because it mean in English
6 the servant of the patient. It is no meaning to me.
7 Q So you've heard Abdallah, A-B-D-U-L-L-A-H?
8 A Abdallah many, yes, million of people. Then there maybe
9 more than 500 people Abdallah. In the street you say Abdallah
10 himself his son Abdallah.
11 Q Let me ask you specifically, have you ever heard Wadih El
12 Hage referred to as Abdul Sabbur?
13 A No. Abdul Abdallah. In Arabic language let me tell you,
14 sorry, from the people who are here, let me explain one very
15 important point. Maybe it is for many people missed. I am
16 educated people, person. If I speak English in rough
17 language, this is because I am Arabic.
18 In the Arab country, you find one million in the same
19 family, in my family I have about 15 one his name Mohammed.
20 For that if ever call you want Mohammed, Mohammed, who listen?
21 For that it is a tradition that you will state in the name of
22 the son or the elder son. If he have no son, we have to name
23 as Abdallah, my nickname, but what, how did come? Abdallah is
24 called Abdi for that Mohammed. This is the way call that when
25 you have to give name either you have to hear the name or his
4254
1 nickname.
2 Q Okay. I'll just ask you a simple question.
3 A Yes, please.
4 Q You never knew Wadih El Hage as Abdul Sabbur, correct?
5 A I never know him on that name. I know him as Abdallah and
6 I know his wife Am Abdallah.
7 Q Now, let me talk to you about the company called Black
8 Giant.
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Let me approach you with what has been marked as
11 Government Exhibit 300U as in Uganda.
12 Now, sir, I approached with you a copy of a document
13 marked as Government Exhibit 300U for identification. I just
14 ask you to look at that document and tell me if you recognize
15 what it is?
16 A This is a company Black Giant, agreement of understanding
17 and this is the first step to establish a company in Kenya,
18 but Black Giant I want to see the original copy for that, I
19 can't understand, because it was handed by Mr. Wadih when we
20 do this company.
21 Q Let me just focus on the letterhead. Did you see
22 letterhead on that document, 300U that says Black Giant?
23 A Yeah, this is Black Giant, but maybe it's not the
24 memorandum cover. Maybe this is a head letter he have to
25 prepare about it.
4255
1 Q And you call that a head letter?
2 A Yeah, head letter, maybe, but not no memorandum.
3 Q And my questions, to make it easier, are only focused
4 exactly on the letterhead or head letter. Is that the head
5 letter of Black Giant?
6 A Sorry. Black Giant is registered as a memorandum but it
7 is not registered as a company, okay? Because after we make
8 the memorandum to the lawyer or the attorney there are other
9 step to register the company officially.
10 Q Okay. Could you just focus on my question. Whatever
11 Black Giant is, is this the letterhead for Black Giant, yes or
12 no?
13 A No, it is, it was the head letter. Maybe it is an idea
14 because Black Giant I told you it is not registered officially
15 at that time.
16 Q Did you ever create a letterhead or head letter for Black
17 Giant?
18 A We put some ideas, but not we put a letterhead. Ideas
19 now.
20 Q And did you discuss using the PO box, the post office box
21 of Wadih El Hage for Black Giant being post office box 72239?
22 A Maybe he tried one of the directors at that time he have
23 to put his idea, but we to the, as I told you, sorry to say or
24 confusing people, Black Giant we put as memorandum. After
25 memorandum we have the steps to have letterhead registration
4256
1 officially in the department, different department, then take
2 telephone for, fax number, so on.
3 For that this is an idea come out. For that he use
4 his letter. I don't know about it.
5 Q Just focus on my question. In talking about Black Giant,
6 did you discuss with Wadih El Hage using the post office box
7 72239 and the phone number 820067 on the letterhead? Yes or
8 no?
9 A To use the telephone number, maybe, yes, because we have
10 to use the telephone number for my own conversation, yes. But
11 PO box, I couldn't remember.
12 Q Okay, fair enough. We'll come back to Black Giant in a
13 moment.
14 You mentioned a person the other day by the name of
15 Harun and let me display Government Exhibit 110 in evidence.
16 Do you recognize that person?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Who is that?
19 A Harun.
20 Q How do you know Harun?
21 A I met him sometimes in Mr. Wadih house.
22 Q Now, let me ask you a question. How did you get along
23 with Harun on a personal basis?
24 (Witness consults interpreter)
25 A Sorry to say in the court it was very bad relation because
4257
1 I don't like his attitude at all of the. He's very rude.
2 Q Did you have a particular problem with Harun on an
3 occasion?
4 A No, only I don't like his behavior. For that I far away
5 from him.
6 Q Did you ever visit the home of Wadih El Hage while Wadih
7 El Hage was away traveling but Harun was there?
8 (Witness consults interpreter)
9 A During absent you mean?
10 Q I'm sorry. Was there a time when Wadih El Hage was
11 traveling that you went to Wadih El Hage's home and met with
12 Harun or saw Harun there?
13 A I couldn't remember, maybe when Wadih come after the house
14 I was there, maybe I saw him there. Maybe I saw him there,
15 but I don't sure.
16 Q Do you recall if there ever was an occasion where Harun
17 would not let you use Mr. El Hage's telephone?
18 A Maybe I ask and he refused. Maybe I asked his, maybe.
19 I'm not sure also because Mr. Wadih allow me to use his
20 telephone in my conversation, but I told you he's very rude
21 with me, because I don't like his behavior.
22 Q Okay. Now, you've talked about a number of tapes and
23 transcripts the last couple of days and some of those were
24 taped conversations that you participated in, correct?
25 You were one of the speakers, correct?
4258
1 A I was?
2 Q You spoke on some of the tapes that were played in court,
3 correct?
4 A Yes, that's correct, yes.
5 Q Some of the tapes they spoke about you, correct, but you
6 were not on the conversations, correct?
7 A Yes.
8 (Continued on next page)
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
4259
1 Q And sometimes you just listened to other people talk but
2 you helped us try to figure out what they were talking about,
3 correct?
4 A The voice, something, yes.
5 Q What I would like to do now is to show you Government's
6 Exhibit 211A. I would like to put 211A-T up on the screen,
7 transcript, and we have 211A cued up so that you can hear it
8 in the Arabic while we watch in the English translation. To
9 move things along I am going to tell you beforehand some of
10 the questions --
11 A Can I interrupt you please for a little bit, if you can
12 put for me in the Arabic, because I find a lot of mistakes in
13 the translation in English.
14 Q OK, we will play for you in Arabic.
15 I have put an English transcript in front of you and
16 we will put an English transcript on the screen. We will play
17 the Arabic in the relevant portions.
18 To help orient you, you testified the other day
19 regarding Wadih El Hage Exhibit W13T a phone call of February
20 7, 1997, at 20:19 p.m. in the evening. This is a phone call
21 on the same telephone, the same day, February 7, 1997, a half
22 hour earlier, involving a Harun and a Mustafa. To start, we
23 are going to just play the first two pages first, and before I
24 ask you that, do you know where Wadih El Hage was in February
25 1997? Do you know if he took a trip?
4260
1 A What?
2 Q Do you know where Wadih El Hage was in the early part of
3 February 1997?
4 A I don't know. I couldn't remember. Just a minute,
5 because I was outside of the country at that time, I remember,
6 myself. February 1997?
7 Q Yes. Let me ask you this. Do you know if Wadih El Hage
8 went to Pakistan or Afghanistan in early February 1997?
9 A I know he went to Pakistan but I did not know to
10 Afghanistan.
11 Q Do you know when that was? Do you know if that was in
12 February of 1997?
13 A I couldn't remember the date.
14 Q What we are going to do is, we are going to play the first
15 two pages of the call in Arabic to you. We will display the
16 first two pages on the screen. I would like to see if you can
17 help us figure out where Wadih El Hage was at the time of this
18 call, February 7, 1997.
19 A '97?
20 Q 1997.
21 A But this is not in Arabic.
22 Q We are going to play the Arabic conversation.
23 (Tape played)
24 Q We will stop there at 4:33. Did you hear --
25 A I hear, but I did not recognize any one of these funny
4261
1 voices, not, because I never hear these voices.
2 Q These are not people that you are familiar with from your
3 work with Wadih El Hage, correct?
4 A No.
5 Q Did you hear the statement that a few days ago your friend
6 over there had called, the big one, he said your friend had
7 arrived? Can you tell us anything about who that was, if you
8 know? (Interpreted)
9 A No, sorry.
10 Q Then we will skip to page 5 of the transcript and we will
11 start at counter 6:10, and we will listen to two pages. I am
12 going to ask you to focus on the question whether or not the
13 person Harun was the same person you identified in a call a
14 half hour later is talking about you during this conversation.
15 Starting at 6:10, page 5 of the transcript, and we will play
16 it through the end of page 6.
17 (Tape played)
18 A I did not know this. I did not understand.
19 (Playing continued)
20 Q Sir, do you hear the people talking one of whom is
21 identified as Harun in the transcript as someone who wanted to
22 use the office and they were working with a head letter with
23 the address and the phone number?
24 A Yes. This make me surprised. First of all, he say that I
25 make that office for him. I never go to that office and I did
4262
1 not know because still we are not planning. It mean that he
2 mean somebody, not me. He not mean me at all on this subject.
3 Q Did you hear this person talking about someone who came
4 begging to use the --
5 A No, I never beg. I am proud. Never I am begging. I can
6 go to telephone immediately.
7 Q I am not asking whether he is describing your conduct
8 accurately. Even if he is being unfair, is he describing you
9 when he talks about the person who wants to use the phone to
10 call Hong Kong?
11 A No, sorry. Nobody can. I am very well known in the
12 Christian community and the Muslim community and the Buddhist
13 community.
14 Q Did you ever go to Wadih El Hage's home and try to use the
15 phone to call Hong Kong while Harun was there?
16 A I couldn't remember, but I never go to Wadih house when
17 Wadih is not available. This is our tradition. I will never
18 go to anyone's house when the owner is not available. Either
19 he requested me, I will never go.
20 Q Would you answer the question, do you know if you ever
21 went to Wadih El Hage's house and tried to use the phone to
22 call Hong Kong while Harun was there? Yes or no.
23 A Is Wadih is there or not, also can you clear your
24 question, please. If Wadih is not there, I never go. If
25 Wadih is there, maybe yes.
4263
1 Q Did Harun ever tell you not to use the phone to call Hong
2 Kong? Yes or no.
3 A I couldn't remember.
4 Q And the reference --
5 A Sorry. Harun couldn't tell me that. I told you I am very
6 proud person. I can beat him. I am not a small kid. I am 61
7 years now.
8 Q If we could focus on the language at the bottom of page 6
9 where it says his wife says if the telephone, the man's wife,
10 she says that also the telephone, that the guys over there may
11 shoot him.
12 Do you have any idea who they are talking about
13 there?
14 A What?
15 Q Do you have any idea who they are talking about in that
16 passage on page 7? Page 6, sorry. Bottom of page 6. If you
17 don't know, just say you don't know. I just want to know if
18 you know who they are talking about.
19 A No.
20 Q If we can just go back to page 1 and display the header on
21 page 1, where it indicates that there is Harun speaking and a
22 person by the name of Mustafa, also known as Khalid.
23 A I did not know this name and for that either Harun maybe
24 he replied twice in a different voice. Also his voice, I
25 couldn't recognize it.
4264
1 Q Did you recognize it on the phone call transcript you
2 talked about the other day for the same phone?
3 A No, I couldn't recognize his voice.
4 Q If you look ahead -- if we could display on the screen
5 Government's Exhibit 117, photograph. Do you know that
6 person?
7 A No.
8 Q If we could display on the screen a different version of
9 that photograph, Government's Exhibit 4-13. Do you recognize
10 that photograph or does the name Mustafa Fadhl or the name
11 Khalid help at all?
12 A No, I do not recognize. Maybe they are the same one.
13 Q But you don't know that person?
14 A I couldn't recognize this person.
15 Q You indicated earlier this morning that you talked to
16 Mr. El Hage about stones after he came back from Pakistan,
17 correct?
18 A That's correct, yes.
19 Q In the document you put in Wadih El Hage Exhibit JJJ,
20 which I believe you have in front of you, you will agree with
21 me that there is no expense listed for Black Giant for
22 February 1997 for a trip to Pakistan, correct?
23 A Of course. It is not necessary. Black Giant is not
24 responsible about that trip or about the expenses. Nobody,
25 Black Giant is not also responsible about my trip to Hong Kong
4265
1 and to China, because Black Giant is Kenya. Any business can
2 be done on his own. The benefit can be shared, not the
3 expenses. The expenses, each one is the one.
4 Q But you as part of Black Giant were not paying Wadih El
5 Hage's expenses, correct?
6 A I said Black Giant was not established a company yet.
7 Q On JJJ, there was a listing for expenses to Zambia at the
8 end of February 1997, correct? Maybe if we could display it
9 on the Elmo on the screen.
10 A Where is expense to Zambia?
11 Q If you look at the top as you explained to me earlier,
12 under February 25 and 27, there is a listing for a trip to
13 Macakos, and two items down a trip to Zambia, and those were
14 paid out to Wadih El Hage in February 1997, correct?
15 A Yes. This is including the buying stones.
16 Q And the only other expense listed in February is at the
17 bottom of the page, which is 500 Kenyan shillings or about
18 $10, correct?
19 A This is for visa.
20 Q There is no listing on this document for El Hage's trip to
21 Pakistan, correct, for February 1997, correct?
22 A Do you find any trip to me to Hong Kong?
23 Q I am just asking you, sir.
24 A No, sir.
25 Q For Mr. El Hage, is there a listing for a trip to
4266
1 Pakistan?
2 A No. If you see no listing to Black Giant, you have to ask
3 the same question. I have no trips to Hong Kong for the same
4 period, 10 trips.
5 Q Is there a listing for Mr. El Hage's expenses for a trip
6 to Pakistan on JJJ? Yes or no. (Interpreted)
7 A Why we have to pay for him if he have to go back his own
8 way?
9 THE COURT: Sir --
10 A No.
11 THE COURT: The answer is no.
12 Q Let me display on the screen the first page of
13 Government's Exhibit 310, 74TR, just page 1. If we could
14 focus on the paragraph with the asterisk under 1 that says Abu
15 Sabbur brings to light the new policy. It indicates when Abu
16 Sabbur arrived on 22/2/1997, he contacted Khalid directly and
17 asked him to come to Nairobi. When he identified and met with
18 Abu Sabbur, he informed him about the status of the young men
19 and the Hage and that they were fine, and he received from him
20 the trusts, the letters, the money, and he informed him also
21 that the Hage has a new policy pertaining to the region,
22 hence, Khalid fully grasped this policy and took the issue
23 seriously. The new policy is to revive the activism in
24 Somalia if the expression is correct and prepare 300 activists
25 before the arrival of the guests, and informed him that the
4267
1 details of the policy are with the guest coming from the Hage
2 end.
3 This is part of a document taken from the computer of
4 Mr. El Hage.
5 Do you know who in this document Abdul Sabbur is?
6 Yes or no.
7 A No.
8 Q Do you know who in this document Khalid is? Yes or no.
9 A No.
10 Q Do you know who in this document El Hage is, meaning the
11 Hage is? Yes or no.
12 A Also I don't know if only I told you if Wadih El Hage or
13 another Hage. I don't know.
14 Q Do you know, yes or no, whether the El Hage referred to
15 there is Usama Bin Laden?
16 A Sorry, no.
17 Q Can we agree on one thing: Whatever this report is about,
18 it has nothing to do with Black Giant business; is that
19 correct?
20 A Yes, nothing completely.
21 Q Completely different.
22 A Yes.
23 Q Now, sir, I would like to move ahead from February of 1997
24 to July of 1997, and if you recall, yesterday you testified
25 about an exhibit WEHX-W13-T, and that was a phone call -- I am
4268
1 sorry -- WEHX-27-E, which was a phone call on June 27, 1997,
2 between a Farouq and a Wadih. I can hand up a copy but if you
3 recall, it discussed how there was planning for a convention
4 to be held at the Kenyan International Convention Center in
5 August of 1997. Do you recall that testimony?
6 A Can you repeat? No.
7 Q Yesterday -- if I could have the original of WEHX-W27 in
8 place on the Elmo. It is a two-page document. If you look at
9 the top of the page, I believe you testified about this
10 yesterday. It says June 27 as the date. The time is 7:30,
11 and the participants are Farouq and Wadih. Knowing that, we
12 can skip to the second page. Do you recall this phone call
13 about a convention that was to take place in a convention
14 center in downtown Nairobi? Yes or no.
15 A Yes.
16 Q Is this the phone call about the conversation about the
17 convention that was to take place with the Jordanian
18 delegation in Nairobi in the Kenyan Convention Center?
19 (Interpreted)
20 A Exhibition. We are talking about Mr. Farouq, Kenyan
21 consulate in Jordan.
22 Q He is talking on page 2 about a convention that is to take
23 place in Nairobi on August 8, 1997, correct?
24 A Yes, it was taken on 1997.
25 Q Did the convention actually go forward on that day, August
4269
1 whatever 1997 in Nairobi?
2 A I am sure it taking place at that time in Nairobi but I
3 was outside of the country myself.
4 Q Do you know whether or not Wadih Hage attended that
5 convention? Yes or no.
6 A I told you I am outside of the country.
7 Q But he never told you he attended the convention?
8 A No.
9 Q Did he ever tell you that he missed the convention?
10 A I said I told you I did not know anything about it.
11 Q Do you know if Wadih El Hage was in Afghanistan or
12 Pakistan in August of 1997?
13 A I told you I left to Hong Kong and he left to Pakistan. I
14 don't know where he was and where, what he is doing. I don't
15 know.
16 Q Did Wadih El Hage ever tell you that during the trips to
17 Pakistan that he went to a place other than Karachi, which you
18 mentioned earlier today? Did he ever tell you that he went to
19 another city in Pakistan?
20 A No. If he tell me another city I did not know myself, but
21 he did not tell me, or Karachi.
22 Q Do you recall did he ever tell you that he went to the
23 border town of Peshawar, P-E-S-H-A-W-E-R, in Pakistan?
24 A No.
25 Q Sir, you talked the other day about how when you first met
4270
1 Mr. El Hage it was in May or June of 1996, correct?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q And he did you a favor by taking your daughter to the
4 hospital, correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And you were in effect neighbors because you lived in
7 roughly the same area, correct?
8 A I shift to that area in January 1996, yes.
9 Q After that point in time your families became friendly,
10 correct?
11 A Yes. This is natural between kids can be friendly, yes.
12 Q So the kids were friendly, the wives were friendly?
13 A Yes, they go and come back, they bring with each other,
14 yes.
15 Q And you and Mr. El Hage are friendly, correct?
16 A Yes, we are colleagues in business.
17 Q During that time, did Mr. El Hage -- strike that.
18 What I would like to do is display on the screen
19 Government's Exhibit 218A-T. I want to play a call that is
20 marked Government's Exhibit 218A, and I will tell you the
21 question, the area of questioning that I am going to ask in
22 advance. What I would like you to focus on is whether or not
23 during your family relationships with Mr. El Hage, if he ever
24 told you about a person named Dr. Atef, A-T-E-F, and a clinic.
25 We can start, if we want, at the bottom of page 2, and the
4271
1 marker in the transcript, I think the time is 2:40. I want
2 you to focus, sir, on whether or not you know this person
3 Dr. Atef, whether he is a doctor, where his clinic is, and if
4 you know his telephone number.
5 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection to the form of the question,
6 your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Overruled.
8 Q We will put on the screen and we will start playing --
9 A You ask about doctor or what --
10 Q First of all, do you know a person named Dr. Atef?
11 A I do not know. My doctor is Dr. Farouq, yes.
12 Q I want you to listen to this conversation the way you
13 listened to other conversations before and see if you can help
14 us figure out who Dr. Atef is.
15 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection, your Honor.
16 A You see my friend, if I couldn't recognize a voice, you
17 have to recognize all the people who talk with Wadih, how can.
18 It's OK, I can listen also.
19 Q Just listen and see if you know this person Dr. Atef.
20 (Tape played)
21 Q Mr. Odeh, do you know the Dr. Atef they are talking about
22 during that phone call? Yes or no.
23 A No.
24 Q When Mr. El Hage made a comment to the other person Harun,
25 try to combine these numbers, do you know what he meant? Yes
4272
1 or no. (Interpreted)
2 A I don't know, but because this number, if you put it
3 together, it is six number, you repeat the number of the
4 phone. But what he mean, I don't know.
5 Q Did Mr. El Hage ever talk to you and give you any
6 telephone numbers in code at any time?
7 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection.
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 (Question interpreted)
10 A No, not --
11 THE COURT: No.
12 Q Yes or no, sir.
13 A No.
14 Q Sir, let me show you a picture, Government's Exhibit 4-3.
15 Do you know the person depicted in that picture with the name
16 underneath Abu Hafs? Have you ever seen that person?
17 A I did not see this picture in my life.
18 Q Is that someone that you in your course of dealings with
19 Wadih El Hage or Black Giant have ever discussed with Wadih El
20 Hage? Yes or no.
21 (Interpreted)
22 A No, no, no, no, completely no.
23 Q Do you know if that is the person referred to in that
24 conversation as Dr. Atef? Yes or no. (Interpreted)
25 A No.
4273
1 Q You were shown some business cards yesterday. I would
2 like to show you one last exhibit, Government's Exhibit 304,
3 pop-up telephone book. I would ask Mr. Francisco to display
4 that on the Elmo. There is a dial on the phone book for
5 letters, if we could fix the dial at the letter H, press H.
6 If we could open the phone book. This is an exhibit recovered
7 in the search of Mr. El Hage's home. If you could open the
8 phone book at the letter H. If you could focus on the fifth
9 entry down, Hafusa, H-A-F-U-S-A, and if we could read the
10 entry, 873682/505331.
11 Mr. Odeh, do you recall those numbers being spoken
12 about on the telephone call you just listened to regarding
13 Dr. Atef and his clinic? (Interpreted)
14 A Yes, I read these two numbers here from the previous tape.
15 87368/505331, yes, but he give it differently. He give 505
16 and he repeat, correct. This is the two numbers that I have
17 here.
18 Q Do you know the person Hafusa in Mr. El Hage's phone book?
19 Yes or no. (Interpreted)
20 A No, sir, I don't know.
21 Q Can we agree that the person Hafusa, the person Dr. Atef,
22 the person Mustafa, the person Khalef and the person Abu
23 Sabbur are all people that you did not come to know in the
24 course of your dealings with Mr. El Hage and Black Giant?
25 A No, I did not any of them.
4274
1 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you.
2 THE COURT: Redirect? How long will it be? It is a
3 question of when to take break.
4 MR. SCHMIDT: In minutes.
5 THE COURT: Redirect.
6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. SCHMIDT:
8 Q Approximately how many times did you travel to the Far
9 East from the time that you started dealing in business with
10 Mr. El Hage to the time that he left Nairobi?
11 A You mean that how many times I left to Far East after he
12 left Nairobi?
13 Q No, before. After you started working with Mr. El Hage on
14 some of the stone deals until he left, so from the summer of
15 1996 to September of 1997, about how many times did you take
16 trips to the Far East?
17 A About three times, and I stay nearly about six months
18 outside of the country during this period.
19 Q During that period of time -- withdrawn.
20 Did you receive money back from Black Giant for
21 expenses from Mr. El Hage on those trips?
22 A No, no. Sorry, the things -- sorry, to understand. Black
23 Giant still an idea in memorandum, it is a paper. It is not a
24 company, because the company have other procedures. She have
25 to go to commerce to take a lesson. She have to go to mining
4275
1 for a lesson. It is a long procedure. The mining is only a
2 certificate of incorporation. Not existence of money. The
3 expenses come here to show what we will be, it is not the
4 expenses of the company, for who pay more than the other, you
5 understand. We buy stone.
6 Q When you are dealing together with Mr. El Hage, whether it
7 is chrysoprase or tourmaline or tanzanite, you just want to
8 keep an account of how much money you spent and how much money
9 he spent; is that right?
10 A Sorry, I have to also clarify two things if you give me
11 time. There are two different deal. There one deal we go
12 together jointly. There one deal that he can go separately,
13 one deal that I can. The deal we go jointly, this I recall.
14 Q When you were traveling, was there anyone watching over
15 your wife and children?
16 A Yes, sometimes I ask the neighbor or Mr. Wadih to look for
17 them because they neighbor, you know. But also some people my
18 neighbor. Dr. Miso, Mr. Wadih come to visit. But because he
19 very closely, all the communication come through him, to me,
20 my wife, everything.
21 (Continued on next page)
22
23
24
25
4276
1 MR. SCHMIDT: Thank you very much.
2 THE COURT: Anything further of this witness?
3 MR. FITZGERALD: No, thank you.
4 THE COURT: Thank you. We will take our mid-morning
5 recess.
6 THE WITNESS: Mr. Fitzgerald, can I have a small talk
7 with you, please.
8 THE COURT: No, no, no.
9 (Jury excused)
10 THE COURT: Mr. Schmidt, what is the next order of
11 business?
12 MR. DRATEL: We will be calling Ashif Juma.
13 THE COURT: The Juma witnesses. OK, we will take a
14 recess.
15 Mr. Schmidt, the witness has asked to talk to Mr.
16 Fitzgerald and I said I thought that was not a good idea.
17 MR. SCHMIDT: Excuse me.
18 THE COURT: I said I thought he should not. I am
19 telling you the colloquy that took place here where the
20 witness said may I talk to you, to Mr. Fitzgerald, and I said
21 no, that he should not.
22 MR. SCHMIDT: Thank you.
23 (Witness excused)
24 (Recess)
25 THE COURT: For the benefit of counsel for Odeh and
4277
1 to avoid a break, people come long distances, so that it is
2 unfortunate when we have an unexpected break. What is the
3 shortest period of time you think your case might take? I ask
4 that so we can advise counsel for Odeh at what time they have
5 to be ready to go forward.
6 MR. SCHMIDT: Other than the difficulties we may have
7 relating to the Somalia issue, which I don't know when
8 possible military people may be available, the shortest
9 probably would be next Wednesday it would be finished. It
10 would be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.
11 THE COURT: So that counsel for Odeh should have a
12 witness available for Thursday.
13 MR. RICCO: You mean tomorrow, Judge?
14 THE COURT: Thursday a week.
15 MR. RICCO: Our case will be ready to go as of
16 Tuesday morning. Everything will be in place.
17 THE COURT: With witnesses present --
18 MR. RICCO: We will have witnesses ready to go.
19 MR. SCHMIDT: If I may, because also we are bringing
20 people in out of the country and scheduling is sometimes
21 difficult, if it comes a point where our witnesses will be
22 easier or just as convenient for our witnesses to come a day
23 later, say Wednesday or Thursday, do you wish me to speak to
24 counsel to see if we can --
25 THE COURT: Absolutely. Let's bring in the jury.
4278
1 MR. SCHMIDT: We are waiting for Mr. Dratel, who I
2 think is probably with the witness.
3 THE COURT: And where would that be?
4 (Pause)
5 (Jury present)
6 THE COURT: Mr. Dratel, the defendant El Hage may
7 call its next witness.
8 MR. DRATEL: Thank you, your Honor. We call Ashif
9 Juma.
10 ASHIF MOHAMED JUMA, recalled.
11 THE COURT: Mr. Juma, the court reminds you you are
12 still under oath. Do you understand that?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 (Continued on next page)
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
4279
1 DIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. DRATEL:
3 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Juma.
4 A Good afternoon.
5 Q When you testified earlier, you testified that you were in
6 a ferryboat accident in May of 1996?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q In Lake Victoria?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And you survived the accident but Adel Habib died in that
11 accident, is that right?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q If we could have Government's Exhibit 607 and display it
14 on the Elmo. It is in evidence. It is Government's Exhibit
15 607. If I may approach, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 Q Mr. Juma, if you could look at Government's Exhibit 607.
18 Is that a Swahili newspaper?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q It is a Tanzania newspaper?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Do you see the handwriting in blue? You have the original
23 there, correct? You have the original newspaper?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Is there handwriting in blue on it?
4280
1 A Yes.
2 Q Do you recognize that handwriting?
3 A No.
4 Q That is not your handwriting?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q Do you have a brother Sikander?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Do you know whether that is his handwriting?
9 A No, it's not his.
10 Q Do you know who Papo is?
11 A Papo is myself, me, my nickname.
12 Q The arrows point to where in the cabin, the location of
13 the cabin for you and Adel Habib on the ferry?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q You provided that information?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Do you know who wrote these markings on this?
18 A No, sir. I never seen this before.
19 MR. DRATEL: No further questions, your Honor.
20 MR. FITZGERALD: Briefly, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 CROSS-EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
24 Q Let me approach you with Government's Exhibit 359, which
25 we can display on the screen, GX359. First of all, do you
4281
1 speak or read Arabic?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q Looking at Government's Exhibit 359, is that something you
4 wrote?
5 A No, I have never seen this paper before.
6 Q Let me approach you with a translation for Government's
7 Exhibit 359, marked as Government's Exhibit 359T. If we could
8 display on the screen Government's Exhibit 359T, page 1. If
9 you could read that to yourself, Mr. Juma, and I will just
10 read out loud the title, "Details of the accident in which
11 Jalal died." It has been read before. If you can look at it
12 for yourself and see if that is a description of the events
13 that happened when you were in the ship that capsized and Adel
14 Habib drowned and you saved yourself.
15 (Pause)
16 Q If you would now display the bottom half of the page.
17 When you get to page 2, raise your hand and let us know.
18 If you would read page 2 now, if we could display
19 page 2 on the screen.
20 (Pause)
21 Q If we could play the bottom half of page 2 on the screen
22 and if I could ask Mr. Juma to keep reading and when he is
23 done with page 2, if he could indicate.
24 (Pause)
25 Q If we can now display page 3 on the screen.
4282
1 (Pause)
2 Q Sir, are you finished reading that?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Have you ever seen that before, that document?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q Does that describe what happened to you back in May of
7 1996?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Do you know who wrote that document?
10 A No.
11 Q Do you have any idea how that could end up in the house of
12 Ali Mohamed in Sacramento, California?
13 MR. DRATEL: Objection, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 Q If we could go back to page 2, just below hours before the
16 accident, if we could focus on the two lines below that, it
17 says Asif, who was with him, told us that they had awakened at
18 5:30, so that they could go to prayer, and then they left the
19 first class compartment. Do you know who the "us" is in "told
20 us"?
21 MR. DRATEL: Objection, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Does he know. That is yes or no.
23 A I don't know who that is.
24 Q In the period after the accident, did anyone come from
25 outside Tanzania to talk to you about what happened?
4283
1 A Sorry.
2 Q After the accident in which Adel Habib, or Jalal, drowned,
3 did anyone travel to Mwanza from outside the country to talk?
4 A Yes, sir. First person came there who knew Jalal was
5 Fazul Mohamed. He came first there.
6 Q If we could display Government's Exhibit 110.
7 A Yes.
8 Q That is the first person to come?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Did anyone come after that?
11 A Yes, it was Mr. Wadih.
12 Q Did either Mr. Fazul or Wadih indicate in any way that
13 they intended to write a report about what you told them?
14 A No, sir.
15 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you. I have nothing further.
16 THE COURT: Anything further of this witness?
17 MR. DRATEL: Yes, your Honor, just briefly.
18 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. DRATEL:
20 Q Mr. Juma, the first person who came to Mwanza after the
21 ferryboat accident was Harun, correct?
22 A Fazul.
23 Q Fazul?
24 A Fazul.
25 Q He went with you to the port to look for the body, right?
4284
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q There were several days of investigation that he did with
3 you, correct?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Mr. El Hage did not come until later on, correct?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q By that time it was already clear that Mr. Adel Habib's
8 body would not be recovered; is that right?
9 A Yes. Actually, we were trying to get the body but we
10 could not.
11 MR. DRATEL: Nothing further, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Thank you --
13 MR. FITZGERALD: Briefly.
14 THE COURT: Yes.
15 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
17 Q I will mispronounce it, but is there a fish in Tanzania
18 called talapia, T-A-L-A-P-I-A?
19 A Yes, we have talapia fish.
20 Q Is there a hotel in Mwanza with the name of the Talapia
21 Hotel?
22 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, it is beyond the scope.
23 THE COURT: Overruled.
24 Q Is there a hotel in Mwanza called the Talapia Hotel?
25 A Yes, there is.
4285
1 Q Did you ever have a conversation with Wadih El Hage at the
2 Talapia Hotel after the accident in which Jalal drowned?
3 A Yes.
4 Q What did you talk about?
5 MR. DRATEL: Objection, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Overruled.
7 A Actually, I can't remember exactly.
8 MR. DRATEL: Objection to the conversation itself.
9 It's an 801 objection.
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 Q Do you recall the topic you discussed with Wadih El Hage
12 at the Talapia Hotel after the accident?
13 A Only a few words.
14 Q Is there anything about that conversation that sticks out
15 in your mind?
16 A Yes, sir. It was like Mr. Wadih tried to find out --
17 MR. DRATEL: Objection, your Honor.
18 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, may he continue the
19 answer?
20 MR. DRATEL: Operation of his mind, what his opinion
21 was.
22 THE COURT: Restate your question.
23 Q What if anything do you recall sticking out in your mind
24 that was said in the conversation between you and Wadih El
25 Hage at the Talapia Hotel following the accident?
4286
1 A It was like he wanted to know --
2 MR. DRATEL: Objection.
3 THE COURT: Overruled. He may continue.
4 A He wanted to know that what we know about Mr. Jalal.
5 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you. Nothing further.
6 THE COURT: Anything further of this witness?
7 MR. DRATEL: No, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down.
9 (Witness excused)
10 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, we call Sikander Juma.
11 Sikander Juma
12 MR. FITZGERALD: He has not testified before, Judge,
13 so he does need to be sworn. I believe we may need a stand-by
14 interpreter to stand by.
15 THE COURT: May we have a Swahili interpreter by the
16 witness.
17 ASHFAK HUSSEIN (SIKANDER JUMA),
18 called as a witness by the defense,
19 having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
20 DIRECT EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. DRATEL:
22 Q Good afternoon.
23 A Good afternoon.
24 Q Are you also known as Sikander?
25 A Yes.
4287
1 Q Sikander Juma?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Are you the brother of Ashif Juma?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Where do you live? Where have you lived until this year?
6 A In Kenya.
7 Q And in Tanzania?
8 A Yes.
9 Q During the period 1996 and 1997, did you know Wadih El
10 Hage in Kenya and Tanzania?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Did you also know someone named Fazul?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did you also know him as Harun or just as Fazul?
15 A I heard his name as Harun too.
16 Q You knew them through your brother-in-law Adel Habib?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Adel Abu Hebrew was married to your sister Tahira?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Adel Habib used to travel on occasion?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You met Mr. El Hage and Harun while Mr. Adel Habib was
23 away, correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q That was because he would send back money to your sister
4288
1 Tahira through them?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And you would pick up the money from Mr. El Hage or Harun?
4 A Yes.
5 Q With respect to Mr. Adel Habib, he was a religious Muslim,
6 correct?
7 A Adel Habib?
8 Q Yes.
9 A Yes.
10 Q But he still went to the movies occasionally?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And you considered him open-minded?
13 A Yes.
14 Q How did he encourage you to be more religious? Was there
15 any way in which he encouraged you to be more religious?
16 A Yes, to pray usually, like Muslim way.
17 Q Did he ever mention the organization Help Africa People to
18 you?
19 A Not him, but I have heard from Fazul.
20 Q Did you ever hear, though, Mr. Adel Habib mention Help
21 Africa People to you?
22 A Not sure. I don't remember.
23 MR. DRATEL: If I may approach, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 Q I show you a document marked 3529-12 and just show you
4289
1 pages 2 and 3 -- I am sorry, page 3. Withdrawn, your Honor.
2 When you were still in Tanzania or in Kenya,
3 actually, Nairobi, did you meet with Kenyan police after the
4 embassy bombings?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You were interviewed by them?
7 A Where did I --
8 Q You were interviewed by Kenyan police? (Interpreted)
9 A Yes, they did.
10 Q And by FBI as well?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Would January 1999 sound like one of the dates that you
13 may have been interviewed?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q If I could just show you 3529-12 and ask you to read just
16 the first paragraph to yourself and then the highlighted
17 portion on page 3, and just let us know when you are finished.
18 Just the first paragraph here and the highlighted part on page
19 3. Thank you.
20 A You can just read for me.
21 (Interpreter complies)
22 Q Does that refresh your recollection as to whether Adel
23 Habib ever mentioned help Africa to you?
24 A Yes.
25 Q So he did. By the way, you also knew him as Jalal?
4290
1 A Mr. Jalal?
2 Q Yes, Adel Habib?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Do you know what Jalal means?
5 A No.
6 Q Is it a Swahili word?
7 A No, it's in Arabic.
8 Q Did Mr. El Hage -- how do you remember Mr. El Hage
9 referring to Adel Habib? As Adel Habib? Or how do you
10 recall?
11 A I don't remember.
12 Q You don't remember?
13 A I don't remember.
14 Q Does 3529-12 also refresh your recollection that Mr. Adel
15 Habib told you that Help Africa People was helpful to Muslim
16 people by giving them food and medicine?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And that he also said that he wanted to open a Help Africa
19 People branch in Kenya?
20 A Yes.
21 Q You knew Mr. Adel Habib for a period of time before you
22 met Mr. El Hage; is that correct?
23 A I beg your pardon.
24 Q Do you recall when you met Mr. Adel Habib?
25 A When I met Mr. Adel Habib?
4291
1 Q Yes.
2 A Yes.
3 Q Do you know when?
4 A I don't remember.
5 Q Do you remember when he married your sister?
6 A No.
7 Q It was a period of time, though, before you met Mr. El
8 Hage, correct?
9 A Yes, before I met Mr. El Hage.
10 Q Did you meet Mr. Adel Habib before he married your sister?
11 A Once, yes.
12 Q So there was a period of time that you knew him before he
13 married your sister and then there was a period of time that
14 you knew him after, before you met Mr. El Hage; is that right?
15 A Yes.
16 Q When Mr. Adel Habib would travel and would have either
17 Mr. El Hage or Harun give you money, Adel Habib told you not
18 to speak to him, correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q But in fact the first time you met Mr. El Hage you had
21 about a 15-minute conversation with him.
22 A Yes.
23 Q He even gave you a phone number how to reach him in
24 Nairobi, right?
25 A Yes.
4292
1 Q Also, when he gave you the money he advised you to count
2 it; is that correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q He said that was cautious, the safe thing to do was to
5 count the money to make sure it was accurate.
6 A Yes.
7 Q After Adel Habib died -- withdrawn.
8 Mr. Adel Habib died in a ferryboat accidents, is that
9 correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q He had loaned money to your brother Ashif for a matatu
12 business that he had; is that right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q That is like a bus, a private bus company?
15 A Yes.
16 Q After Adel Habib died, your sister Tahira, Adel Habib's
17 widow, wanted to get that money back from your brother Ashif,
18 right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And your brother Ashif did not want to pay it back, right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q So your sister asked Mr. El Hage to ask Ashif for the
23 money back for the person who loaned the money to Adel Habib
24 in the first place, right?
25 A Yes.
4293
1 MR. SCHMIDT: I didn't hear a physical answer.
2 (Record read)
3 Q Before then, Adel Habib had said that the money had been
4 provided by somebody else, correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Benay Karama?
7 A Yes.
8 Q The reason that your sister Tahira wanted the money from
9 Ashif, she told Mr. El Hage because she needed it, correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q The plan with your sister Tahira and Mr. El Hage was to
12 have your brother Ashif pay back Mr. Karama and then have
13 Mr. Karama pay the money to Tahira, correct?
14 A That's right.
15 Q In fact, your brother Ashif never paid back any of the
16 money.
17 A No.
18 Q Through all of this contact, you developed a friendship
19 with Mr. El Hage, correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q In fact, he visited you in Mwanza?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And your family, your sisters as well?
24 A Yes.
25 Q He came with his wife as well?
4294
1 A At home in Nairobi.
2 Q And you also met his mother-in-law as well.
3 A Yes.
4 Q And also he invited your sister over as well, Mr. El Hage,
5 right, Tahira?
6 A Pardon.
7 Q Mr. El Hage also invited your sister Tahira as well.
8 A Yes.
9 Q Would you say it would be a good estimate to say that
10 during that time period you would see Mr. El Hage about once a
11 month?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Earlier this morning you heard some tape recordings, you
14 listened to some tape recordings? (Interpreted)
15 A Yes.
16 Q You identified your voice and Mr. El Hage's voice on two
17 of those tapes?
18 A One tape, if I remember.
19 Q And your sister's voice on another tape?
20 A Yes.
21 Q How many tapes did you listen to this morning?
22 A Two --
23 Q Or three?
24 A Or three. One, it was in Arabic. Another one I was
25 talking to Wadih and the second one my sister, she was talking
4295
1 to one of the lady.
2 Q Was there a third tape with you and Wadih as well?
3 A I don't remember.
4 MR. DRATEL: If I may approach, your Honor.
5 Q I am just going to show you what are marked important
6 identification as WIHXW38, W37 and W36. I just ask you if you
7 recall these from this morning?
8 A Yes.
9 Q So it may have been three?
10 A Yes, these.
11 Q And you were on two of them and your sister is on one of
12 them?
13 A Yes.
14 MR. DRATEL: I would move them in evidence, your
15 Honor.
16 MR. FITZGERALD: No objection.
17 THE COURT: W36, 37 and 38 received.
18 (Defense Exhibits WEHXW37, WEHXW38 and WEHXW39
19 received in evidence)
20 MR. DRATEL: We would like to read 36, your Honor.
21 We are going to read a tape, Mr. Juma, so you can just listen
22 and watch on the screen the transcript. NB1-003-1. We are
23 just going to read it. It is in English but we will
24 dispense -- I will read the part of Wadih El Hage, Mr. Schmidt
25 will read Sikander's part. This is October 28, 1996.
4296
1 (Exhibit read)
2 Q I just want to ask you a question, Mr. Sikander. The
3 Fazul that you were referring to is the same person?
4 A Yes.
5 (Reading continued)
6 Q Mr. Juma, do you know the person to whom he was referring
7 when he said the brother who wants to see the piece of land?
8 A I don't remember.
9 Q Do you recall? You don't remember? Do you know what the
10 piece of land was?
11 A Mwanza?
12 Q Yes.
13 A It was plot for Jalal, Mr. Jalal.
14 MR. DRATEL: We will continue.
15 (Reading continued)
16 THE COURT: What you are reading is not on the
17 screen.
18 MR. FITZGERALD: If we want to use the Elmo, we can
19 borrow my copy.
20 (Reading continued)
21 Q Mr. Juma, when you said you had a problem with money, were
22 you hoping to get some money out of the deal if in fact there
23 was a deal for that piece of land?
24 A I don't remember, sir.
25 Q Were you hoping to do some business with Mr. El Hage?
4297
1 A No.
2 (Reading continued)
3 Q This was after Adel Habib had already died, correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q He died in May of 1996.
6 A Yes.
7 Q Does they ever purchase the land in Mwanza, to your
8 knowledge?
9 A Who?
10 Q Mr. El Hage.
11 A He purchase?
12 Q Yes.
13 A No.
14 Q Now I would like to read WEHX-W37, which is another
15 English conversation, but we will read it. I will again read
16 Wadih, Mr. Schmidt will read Sikander. This is February 21,
17 1997.
18 (Exhibit read)
19 THE COURT: We will break till 2:15.
20 (Luncheon recess)
21
22
23
24
25
4298
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2 2:15 p.m.
3 (In open court; jury not present)
4 MR. SCHMIDT: Judge, before the jury comes out, I'd
5 like to speak to your Honor ex-parte in camera concerning the
6 witness that we expected to follow Mr. Juma.
7 MR. COHN: If that's the Islamic expert, I believe we
8 have an interest in hearing.
9 THE COURT: What?
10 MR. COHN: If that's the Islamic expert, given the
11 representation that Mr. El Hage's team has made about the fact
12 that they want to inquire about my client's statement, I
13 believe we have a right to be present.
14 MR. SCHMIDT: That's not the issue. I have no
15 problem with defense counsel hearing it. I do not want it to
16 be --
17 MR. FITZGERALD: No objection.
18 THE COURT: I'll see the reporter and defense counsel
19 in the robing room.
20 MR. COHN: Whose counsel?
21 THE COURT: All of them.
22 (Continued on next page)
23
24
25
4304
1 (Pages 4299 through 4303 sealed)
2 (In open court; jury not present)
3 THE COURT: I plan to tell the jury that after
4 conferring with counsel we conclude that it will expedite
5 matters if we do not sit tomorrow. Is that acceptable to
6 everyone?
7 MR. COHN: Yes, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Let's bring in the jury and the witness
9 may resume the stand.
10 (Continued on next page)
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
4305
1 (Jury present; witness resumed)
2 THE COURT: Good afternoon. Mr. Dratel, you may
3 continue.
4 MR. DRATEL: Thank you, your Honor.
5 Q Good afternoon, again, Mr. Juma.
6 Before lunch we had read the transcript of
7 conversation WEHX-W37 which was a February 21st conversation
8 between you and Mr. El Hage, and if I can just review, will
9 you put page 5 on the Elmo, please, of the transcript of
10 WEHX-37, W37, NB1-050-2.
11 There is a spot, actually if you can move the cursor
12 down. Is it possible to move the cursor down? It says: They
13 have eaten money. If you can just stop it there.
14 You see where the cursor is blinking on left?
15 THE COURT: I think the witness doesn't read English.
16 MR. DRATEL: I'm sorry.
17 If it can be translated that line where it says:
18 They have eaten money, they have eaten money from that indian.
19 (Through the interpreter)
20 You were referring to the car accident that you had
21 had with the Indian person, correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And when you say, they have eaten money, you're referring
24 to the police who are on the scene?
25 A Yes.
4306
1 Q And what does the phrase in Swahili, the phrase, eaten
2 money, what does that mean?
3 A It's a bribe.
4 Q So that meant that the Indian, the other driver who you
5 had the accident with, had already bribed the police officer?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Now, that car that you were driving, did you by that from
8 Mr. El Hage?
9 A No, it was Jalal's car.
10 Q But Mr. El Hage had given you the car or given you the
11 registration?
12 A I don't remember.
13 Q Now, to move on to WEHX--W38, and --
14 MR. DRATEL: May I approach, your Honor?
15 THE COURT: Yes.
16 Q I show you the transcript of that conversation. Did you
17 write that, Tahera Adell Habib?
18 A Yes.
19 Q That was one of the persons in the conversation, correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And the other is Mr. El Hage's wife?
22 A Yes.
23 MR. DRATEL: I want to put this in evidence, your
24 Honor, with the witness' handwriting on it.
25 MR. FITZGERALD: No objection, Judge.
4307
1 THE COURT: Received.
2 (Defendant's Exhibit WEHX-38 received in evidence)
3 Q Just read him the first couple of lines, the first two or
4 three lines.
5 (Pause)
6 In the conversation they don't identify each other
7 when they answer the phone, correct?
8 Q Is that correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q But it's clear they knew each other well enough without
11 even having to identify each other by name who the other
12 person was on the call?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And you read that transcript, or you reviewed that
15 transcript earlier, you heard the conversation earlier, I
16 should say, and that's all about family matters in that
17 conversation?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Between Mr. El Hage's family and children and Tahera's
20 family in Mwanza?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And I just if I can go to page 5. I'm sorry page -- no,
23 not page 5. Page 7 I think it is.
24 That part of the conversation has a discussion about
25 Mr. El Hage traveling to Mwanza either with you or to see you
4308
1 at a future date, is that correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q When you were interviewed by agents of the FBI and the
4 Kenyan police do you know whether you were shown any photos of
5 Mr. El Hage?
6 A Did I?
7 Q Do you recall whether you were shown any photos of Mr. El
8 Hage?
9 (Witness consults interpreter)
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And you failed to recognize his photo, correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q That because he had a full beard in the photograph?
14 A Not very.
15 Q Let me ask you this. When you knew him in Kenya, did he
16 have a full beard?
17 A Yes.
18 Q He had a full beard when you knew him in Kenya?
19 A Yes.
20 Q So you did not recognize that photo of him when it was
21 shown to you by the FBI?
22 A I did recognize.
23 THE COURT: You're saying you did recognize?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 THE COURT: The witness said he did recognize.
4309
1 MR. DRATEL: If I may approach, your Honor?
2 Q I'm going to show you what is marked as 3529-11, page 1.
3 Could it be read and then look at number 19.
4 (Pause)
5 Now, on page 1 does that refresh your recollection
6 whether or not you identified a photograph of Mr. El Hage for
7 the FBI?
8 (Witness consults interpreter)
9 A I don't remember, sir.
10 THE COURT: I didn't hear that.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
12 THE COURT: He doesn't remember.
13 Q Now, with respect to -- after, Mr. El Hage at some point
14 left Kenya, correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And did not return?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And after Mr. El Hage left you remained in contact with
19 Harun?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And at some point in -- withdrawn.
22 Did Harun ask you to do him a favor at some point in
23 April of 1998?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Was that to help him lease a residence?
4310
1 A Yes.
2 Q Did he tell you why he needed your help?
3 A Yes.
4 Q What did he tell you?
5 A He told me he's not Kenyan citizen, and people if they
6 know that he's not Kenyan, they can charge him more or they
7 can ask for his ID card.
8 Q So you agreed to help him look?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And how long did it take you to find a place that you
11 rented?
12 A I don't remember, but we did find three, four places.
13 Q Three, four days?
14 A No, we tried to find for few days.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Three or four places.
16 A Two, three places.
17 Q Was that within a short period of time?
18 A I don't remember.
19 Q Do you think it was more than a month or less than a
20 month?
21 A I don't remember.
22 Q At the end of April you signed a lease?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And that was 43 Runda Estates?
25 A Yes.
4311
1 Q And the lease began on May 1, 1998?
2 A Yes.
3 Q You didn't know that there was any wrong purpose for Harun
4 renting that house?
5 A No.
6 Q Did there also come a point where there was a person named
7 Jamal, not Jalal, but Jamal came to Nairobi and you had a
8 conversation with Harun's wife?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And she told you that you shouldn't let Jamal come to
11 Runda Estates?
12 A I don't exact his name, but a person was something like
13 this name.
14 Q And Harun said to you that it was a former partner, that
15 the person was a former partner, and he was concerned that he
16 would want his car back?
17 A No.
18 Q Do you recall that?
19 A No.
20 MR. DRATEL: If I may approach, your Honor?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 Q I show you what is marked as 3529-12 and ask the
23 highlighted portion be read to you.
24 (Pause)
25 A He was his friend.
4312
1 Q Did that refresh your recollection that Harun had told you
2 that it was a former partner of his who he was afraid would
3 come and try to get his car back, that was the reason?
4 A I don't know about car, but he didn't want to be in touch
5 with him.
6 Q Harun did not want him to be in touch?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And wouldn't let him come to 43 Runda Estates?
9 A Yes.
10 Q After the embassy was bombed in Nairobi in August of 1998,
11 your address book was left at Runda Estates; is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And a friend of yours who had been working at the house
14 cleaning found it?
15 A Not friend. A lady used to work with before, and she
16 found it, and she took to Runda, she thought it's --
17 THE COURT: She took it?
18 THE WITNESS: She found book and she took it there.
19 THE COURT: She took it?
20 THE WITNESS: To Runda Estate.
21 Q Did she rip out a couple of pages that had your name in
22 it?
23 A I don't remember, but I remember that I did it or.
24 Q Did she rip out something that would identify it as yours?
25 A Pardon?
4313
1 Q Did she rip out something that would identify it as yours?
2 (Witness consults with interpreter)
3 A I don't remember, sir.
4 THE INTERPRETER: I don't remember.
5 Q Do I have 3912? Is that up there?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Here.
7 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, if I may approach?
8 THE COURT: Yes.
9 (Pause)
10 THE INTERPRETER: He says maybe he took the page out.
11 He's not very sure.
12 Q You told the, the pages were taken out in order to try to
13 hide the fact that it identified you as the owner of the
14 address book, correct, and that was because it was a horrible
15 event that had occurred, and either your friend or you,
16 whoever did it, didn't want you to be connected to it,
17 correct?
18 Even though you hadn't done anything wrong?
19 I'm sorry. You've got to answer the first question.
20 And either you or your friends, whoever took the pages out,
21 didn't want you to be connected to such a horrible event, even
22 though you hadn't done anything wrong yourself?
23 A Yes.
24 MR. DRATEL: Nothing further, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Mr. Ricco, defendant Odeh.
4314
1 MR. RICCO: Thank you, your Honor.
2 CROSS-EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. RICCO:
4 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Juma. I'd like to start just where
5 Mr. Dratel left off, and I want to talk about the book that
6 the pages were ripped out of. Your former housekeeper found a
7 book, isn't that right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q She looked through the book and saw information related to
10 yourself, right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q She also saw information in the book that related to
13 Harun, isn't that correct?
14 A I don't know.
15 Q You don't know.
16 A No. I beg your pardon?
17 Q She thought that the book was Harun's book, isn't that
18 right?
19 A She thought it's Harun's book, yes.
20 Q Then she took the book and gave the book to the gardener
21 for Runda Estates?
22 A She used to work there before so she knows him.
23 Q And she gave the gardener the book, right?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And then the gardener took the book and put the book down
4315
1 in the house to make it look like it was left behind, is that
2 right?
3 A Not in the house. It was found in the garden. It was
4 found in the garden. I have heard from one of the FBI told me
5 that they found this book in the garden.
6 Q Yes. But the book was planted in the garden so that it
7 would be found, isn't that right?
8 A She thought, they thought or she or he, they thought it's
9 Fasal's book. They thought it is Fasal's book.
10 Q So they planted the book to make it seem like he had left
11 the book at Runda Estates, right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q But the book was never left at Runda Estates, isn't that
14 right?
15 A It was. They have told me it was found there.
16 Q Excuse me?
17 A They have told me it was found there.
18 Q Didn't you tell the FBI when you were interviewed back on
19 September 6th that they put the book there to make it look
20 like it was left behind there? Didn't you tell that to the
21 FBI?
22 A No.
23 Q You never told them that?
24 A No.
25 Q Okay. Now, the book was really your book.
4316
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And so when the housekeeper found it she ripped the pages
3 out of the book that had any reference to you, isn't that
4 right?
5 A That might be me. I removed the pages.
6 Q You took the pages out?
7 A I don't remember, but, yes.
8 Q So after you took the pages out did you give the book to
9 be planted at the Runda Estates?
10 A No, no. I kept in my house. It was in my house.
11 Q Didn't you tell the FBI when you were interviewed by them
12 on September 6th, and again on September 7th of 1998, that the
13 housekeeper ripped the page out of the book? Didn't you tell
14 them that? Yes or no?
15 A I don't remember.
16 Q Okay. But you do remember if you ripped the page out of
17 the book and put it in your house that you didn't leave that
18 book at Runda Estates, isn't that right?
19 (Witness consults with interpreter)
20 A No, I have not kept that.
21 THE INTERPRETER: He didn't put it in the garden.
22 MR. RICCO: Interpreter?
23 THE INTERPRETER: He did not put the book in the
24 garden.
25 Q Other people put the book in the garden to make it seem as
4317
1 though Harun had left a very valuable document behind. Isn't
2 that right?
3 (Witness consults with interpreter)
4 THE INTERPRETER: He doesn't know why they put it
5 there.
6 Q Didn't you tell the FBI when they interviewed you in
7 September of 1998 that they put it behind to help the
8 investigation of the bombing?
9 A I don't remember.
10 Q You never said that to the FBI?
11 A I don't remember.
12 Q You don't remember or you didn't?
13 A No, I don't remember.
14 MR. RICCO: Can I approach the witness with 3529-5,
15 in particular page 7. With the assistance of the interpreter
16 can that paragraph that's highlighted be read to him. I'll
17 ask if that refreshes his recollection.
18 (Pause)
19 MR. RICCO: Excuse me?
20 THE INTERPRETER: He says --
21 MR. RICCO: I would like to ask a question. Has he
22 had an opportunity to read it?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 THE COURT: To hear it.
25 MR. RICCO: To hear it, I'm sorry, your Honor. Okay.
4318
1 Q Does that, having had that document read to you, does that
2 document refresh your recollection as to whether or not you
3 told the FBI when they interviewed you that the gardener hid
4 the book in a place where it could be found?
5 A If I've told them, then I have, yes.
6 Q Okay. And does it refresh your recollection that you told
7 the FBI that the housekeeper ripped the page out of the book?
8 A Don't remember that.
9 Q Okay.
10 A If I have said, then I have.
11 Q All right.
12 A Yes.
13 Q And that this was done, this planting of the book, so that
14 it could be found, this was done to help the investigation of
15 the bombing. Isn't that right?
16 A To?
17 Q To help the investigation of the bombing?
18 A No, no.
19 Q It was not?
20 A Not to help them. It was to help myself because I was not
21 a Kenyan, and legally, legal, but I was illegal there so I
22 wanted to be on myself, because whatever they have done it was
23 not --
24 Q Are you sure that you didn't tell them to put the book --
25 A No.
4319
1 Q -- since it was going to help you?
2 A No.
3 Q Okay.
4 MR. RICCO: I'd like to approach, your Honor, with
5 3549-12, page 12, and I'd like the interpreter to read the
6 last sentence here.
7 (Pause)
8 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, to help the FBI.
9 Q Okay. So reading, having that document read to you, does
10 it refresh your recollection that one of the things that you
11 told the FBI when they interviewed you was that the people
12 planted the book there so that they can help the FBI's
13 investigation of the bombing?
14 (Witness consults interpreter)
15 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. It was the house girl told
16 him that.
17 A Yes, so they can.
18 Q Is that a yes?
19 A Yes.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
21 A So they can, that book might be helpful for FBI people.
22 Q And, in fact, that book was not left there by Harun, was
23 it?
24 A Not by Harun.
25 Q No?
4320
1 A No.
2 Q But it was made to look that way, right?
3 A It was?
4 Q It was made to look that way, right?
5 (Witness consults with interpreter)
6 A That might be.
7 Q Might be. Now I want to ask you about the car accident.
8 THE COURT: I didn't hear the witness' answer.
9 THE INTERPRETER: It might be. It might be.
10 Q Now, you told us that you were in a car accident and
11 somebody paid a bribe to a policeman over a car accident? Is
12 that what you told us?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And where did this happen? Did it happen in Kenya?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Is this what people do when they're in car accidents in
17 Kenya?
18 A Sometimes.
19 Q They pay bribes to the police officers?
20 A Sometimes, yes.
21 Q Do they also plant evidence in investigations?
22 (Witness consults with interpreter)
23 A I don't know.
24 Q You don't know or no?
25 (Witness consults interpreter)
4321
1 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
2 MR. RICCO: I'm sorry, Judge.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 MR. RICCO: Sorry?
5 Q The answer is?
6 THE COURT: I sustained the objection.
7 THE INTERPRETER: He's not understanding.
8 MR. RICCO: Judge, I'll move on.
9 Q You knew a man named Harun, right?
10 A What?
11 Q You knew a man named Harun?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And in around April of 1998 Harun asked you to do him a
14 favor?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q And the way you had met him is that Mr. Jalal when he was
17 outside of Kenya sometimes he would call you and ask you to go
18 pick up money from people?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And you did this a couple of times, right?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And one of the people that you pick up money from was this
25 fellow Harun?
4322
1 A Yes.
2 Q And one of the things that Mr. Jalal told you was when you
3 go pick this money up, don't ask them any questions, right?
4 A Not any question. But don't let him know who you are.
5 Q Don't tell him about the family, right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And don't tell him how we know each other, that means you
8 and Mr. Jalal, right?
9 A He wanted anybody to know that he's got married to my
10 sister.
11 Q But he told you to make sure you count the money though,
12 right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q All right. Now, when Harun approached you in April he
15 wanted you to help him get a house?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And he was trying to make it seem like he wanted to get a
18 house so that he could bring his family over from the Camerose
19 to live with him in Kenya, right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q That's what he told you?
22 A What?
23 Q That's what Harun told you, right?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And he was pretending with you, a little bit, wasn't he?
4323
1 Withdrawn. I'll withdraw that question.
2 A I didn't know.
3 Q And so you went out to look for a house that would be
4 large enough to accommodate his family, right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And you looked at several houses?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And he wanted a house that had a very high wall and a very
9 big garage?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And you didn't know what he really wanted to use that
14 house for, did you?
15 A No.
16 Q And you signed a lease for that house?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Your signature is on that lease?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You negotiated for that house, right? You negotiated for
23 the rental price of the house, right?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And the reason why Harun told you that he needed you to do
4324
1 the negotiations is because he had to have somebody who was
2 familiar with Kenya?
3 A Yes.
4 Q So that they could get a better price?
5 A Yes.
6 Q So to find somebody familiar with Kenya he called upon
7 you?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Right?
10 A Yes.
11 Q I think Mr. Dratel asked you a question a few seconds ago
12 about Harun not wanting certain persons to come to Runda
13 Estates. Is that true?
14 (Witness consults with interpreter)
15 THE INTERPRETER: After his brother-in-law passed
16 away, yes.
17 Q And I take it that you're not the only person in the
18 country of Kenya that Mr. Harun knew?
19 A No, not only me.
20 Q Okay. And after the house was negotiated Mr. Harun left
21 for about a week, right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And then when he came back he had his wife and his
24 children?
25 A Yes.
4325
1 Q When he came back they didn't go into the house. The
2 children stayed with you for a little while, isn't that
3 correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Because he said he had to go to Mombasa somewhere, isn't
6 that right?
7 A I don't remember, he might not be in Kenya.
8 Q Okay. But you don't know where he went but he definitely
9 left for about a week?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And he came back?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And towards the end of June his father-in-law showed up
14 from the Camrose and his father-in-law stayed at the house?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And I take it that you had been to the house maybe a
17 couple of times?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Is that right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay. Now, before the day of the bombing Harun's family
22 left the country, right?
23 A Before?
24 (Witness consults with interpreter)
25 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form.
4326
1 MR. RICCO: I'm sorry. Okay. I'll rephrase the
2 question.
3 Q The night before the explosion Harun's wife and children
4 left the country, right?
5 A Not before the bombing. The same day of bombing.
6 Q Okay. And you know that because your sister took them to
7 the airport, right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q After the bombing Harun showed up at your house?
10 A Yes.
11 Q His eyes were a little red, right? You remember that?
12 A I don't remember now.
13 Q Okay. But you know he came to your house?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And, in fact, he stayed at your house after the bombing?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And I think he stayed there for about a week or so?
18 A Pardon?
19 Q For about one week?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And during that time period when he was at your house he
22 would discuss the event of the bombing. Isn't that right, how
23 terrible it was, right?
24 A I don't remember.
25 Q No?
4327
1 A I don't remember.
2 Q Did he ever discuss the bombing when he was at your house
3 after it happened?
4 A Yeah, ordinary talk.
5 Q Yes.
6 A Yes.
7 Q But at no time did he say to you, you know, back at Runda
8 Estates we built a bomb that went off. He never told you
9 that?
10 A No.
11 Q And he was at your house for a whole week?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Seven days?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Seven nights?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Plenty of conversation?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And he kept that from you?
22 A Yes.
23 Q No question about that in your mind, that he never told
24 you about that?
25 A No.
4328
1 Q Now, after that time, after a while he then left, he left
2 I think, do you know when he left to where he went to?
3 A To Morocco, something like that.
4 Q But you know that he left at some point?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And afterwards you were questioned by the investigators?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And you were worried, weren't you?
9 A Yes.
10 Q You were worried because you had negotiated for that
11 house?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And you had put your name on that paper?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And, in fact, the night before the bombing you were at the
18 house, isn't that right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q You went to the house and you knocked on the door?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And you had, you waited for a long time?
23 A Almost 15, 20 minutes.
24 Q In fact, you waited so long you were getting ready to
25 leave?
4329
1 A Yes.
2 Q And all of a sudden, Harun comes out to the gate?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And he tells you, I got some people inside but you can
5 come in so you can see my father. Isn't that right?
6 A Yes. Because the plan to go there it was like the family
7 was leaving the second day. So to come and say bye bye to
8 them.
9 Q That's right. And when you came there, you came there
10 with your sister?
11 A Yes.
12 Q So it was a family, that's what was on your mind was that
13 it was a family gathering?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And when you came into the house Harun took you to a
16 particular room, the room was dark?
17 A Yes.
18 Q You were seated on the floor?
19 A It was upstairs.
20 Q Right? But even though the room was dark you could hear
21 other people talking in Arabic?
22 A When we got in the sitting room you can hear people
23 talking.
24 Q That's right.
25 A But when I went to the room I could have not heard them.
4330
1 Q All right. But when Harun told you that there were other
2 people in the house, when you got in the house you could hear
3 their voices but you couldn't see their faces?
4 A No.
5 Q And Harun didn't introduce you to any of the people that
6 he said were inside the house, did he?
7 A What?
8 MR. RICCO: Interpreter.
9 A No, no, sir.
10 (Witness consults with the interpreter)
11 Q And normally in Islamic culture you are introduced to the
12 people in the home when you come in the home, right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q But on this day Harun kept these people secreted from you?
15 A Yes, and told me they are on the phone, and they're
16 talking on the phone, my friend. And he took me up to, so my
17 sister they went to the wife's family, Harun's wife.
18 Q You got a chance to see his father?
19 A Yes.
20 Q You spent some time with him and you left?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, when the investigation started in the case you were
23 worried because you had spent a lot of time with Mr. Harun,
24 isn't that correct?
25 A Yes.
4331
1 Q And you were concerned that somebody would have said he
2 spent time with him, he signed his name to the lease, he must
3 be involved, right?
4 A Not because of that. It was because of I was Tanzanian.
5 Q Okay. That's why you were worried about that book?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Now, when you first met with the agents and you sat down
10 with them, you didn't tell them about the book the first time
11 you met with them, did you?
12 A I don't remember.
13 Q No. You told them about the book much later, isn't that
14 correct?
15 A I don't remember.
16 Q You don't remember.
17 I have just a few more questions, your Honor.
18 After Harun left the country, he left you his truck?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And you washed out the truck?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And swept the truck out, right?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And you did these things even though you didn't have
25 anything to do with what the truck was used for?
4332
1 (Witness consults with interpreter.
2 MR. RICCO: I'll rephrase the question, your Honor.
3 You washed the truck and you swept the truck out?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And even though you did those things, you still had
6 nothing to do with the bombing of the embassy in Kenya?
7 A No, not at all.
8 Q I think that you once said that you have a clean heart?
9 A Yes.
10 Q When it comes to what happened at the Kenyan embassy,
11 isn't that right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Now, Harun tricked you, isn't that right?
14 A You say that, yes.
15 Q Right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q He took advantage of your friendship?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Your relationship with him?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And he put you in a situation where you were fearful that
22 you would be prosecuted for the bombing, isn't that correct?
23 (Witness consults with interpreter)
24 A Yes.
25 Q And your housekeeper was worried. That's why she put the
4333
1 book in the yard so that the investigation could go towards
2 Harun and away from you, isn't that right?
3 A She thought the book is his.
4 MR. RICCO: I have no other questions. Thank you
5 very much.
6 MR. FITZGERALD: I'll be brief, Judge.
7 CROSS-EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
9 Q Mr. Juma?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Have you ever been trained at any of the camps in
12 Afghanistan known as Farouq camp, Khaldan Camp or Khalid camp?
13 A No.
14 MR. COHN: Objection, beyond the scope.
15 Q Have you ever received explosive training?
16 MR. COHN: Objection.
17 THE COURT: Overruled.
18 Q Have you ever received intelligence training?
19 MR. COHN: Objection.
20 A No.
21 Q Have you ever received training in how to conduct a
22 terrorist operation?
23 A No.
24 MR. COHN: Objection.
25 Q Have you ever --
4334
1 THE COURT: If you have an objection to the line of
2 questions --
3 MR. COHN: I do, your Honor, but I believe I have to
4 voice it after each question unless your Honor rules that I
5 don't have to.
6 THE COURT: You don't have to.
7 MR. COHN: Very good.
8 Q Have you ever made bayat, B-A-Y-A-T to anyone?
9 A Bayat?
10 (Witness consults with interpreter)
11 Q Strike that. Do you know what bayat is?
12 (Witness consults with interpreter)
13 THE INTERPRETER: No.
14 A No.
15 Q Have you ever joined al Qaeda?
16 MR. COHN: Objection as to form, your Honor.
17 Q Yes or no?
18 THE COURT: Overruled.
19 THE INTERPRETER: I don't know what it is.
20 Q So when you spent time with Fazhul or Harun at 43 Runda in
21 the week before and after the bombing did you have any idea
22 that Harun was a member of al Qaeda?
23 A Al Qaeda? What is it? No.
24 MR. COHN: Objection as to form, your Honor.
25 MR. FITZGERALD: Nothing further.
4335
1 MR. RICCO: Your Honor, I just have a few.
2 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. RICCO:
4 Q You never received any explosives training, isn't that
5 right?
6 A No.
7 Q Right? You don't know anything about al Qaeda, right?
8 A No.
9 Q You never had any type of military training, isn't that
10 right?
11 A No.
12 Q You didn't know who Haran's, what Haran belonged to, isn't
13 that right?
14 A Who's he? Haran?
15 Q Harun. Harun belonged to. You didn't know?
16 A No.
17 Q And even though you never had any of that training, didn't
18 know nothing about bayat, you were still afraid, wasn't you?
19 A Yes, and we are like this in Kenya.
20 Q Yes. Isn't that right?
21 A Everybody, everything.
22 MR. RICCO: Thank you. No further questions.
23 MR. FITZGERALD: Just one.
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
4336
1 Q You were afraid, but had you done anything wrong?
2 A Pardon?
3 Q Had you done anything wrong?
4 A No.
5 MR. FITZGERALD: Thanks.
6 THE COURT: The witness may step down.
7 (Witness excused)
8 THE COURT: Mr. Schmidt, anything further?
9 MR. SCHMIDT: Not today, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: That's it for today.
11 All right. Ladies and gentlemen, if your look of
12 pleasure is, are we going to quit for the day? Yes. I don't
13 know if you are going to be pleased when I also tell you we're
14 not going to sit tomorrow. Some of you are. And that's
15 because after consulting with the attorneys they're satisfied
16 that in the long run it will save time.
17 So we are going to adjourn until Monday morning.
18 Have a pleasant weekend. Please remember not to read or
19 listen or watch anything to do with this case.
20 I'll take a five-minute recess, and then I want to
21 speak to all counsel.
22 (Recess)
23 (Continued on next page)
24
25
4337
1 (Jury not present)
2 THE COURT: The gist of the conference that I had
3 with defense counsel is that the defendants' case may take
4 less time than had previously been estimated, which at one
5 point led Mr. Cohn to say we may be summing up next week, and
6 to venture the suggestion that if that was to be the case to
7 let the government know that. So the government is advised
8 that that may happen, which I think makes it appropriate for
9 us to review all the open matters that we have. The
10 government was going to review the indictment to see whether
11 there are matters which could be deleted.
12 MR. FITZGERALD: I apologize, your Honor. We did
13 that. I didn't realize that we didn't send it out yesterday.
14 We will get it out tonight. Pruning overt acts and --
15 THE COURT: Pruning overt acts?
16 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. We will be dismissing Count 6
17 and pruning overt acts.
18 THE COURT: Then I would like the defendants prior to
19 the Monday conference, charging conference, to address their
20 comments or their objections to the proposed redacted
21 indictment. When we are all finished with this I will hear --
22 MR. COHN: I just wanted to say, you will get it by
23 Friday at the latest.
24 THE COURT: Fine. And I am going to get a memo on
25 the assault on the guard in the Al-'Owhali death case assuming
4338
1 that there is bifurcation.
2 What is the status with respect to calling of Gaudin
3 and this hearsay issue? Last time we raised it there was some
4 suggestion that it might be consensually resolved.
5 MR. FITZGERALD: That is still being discussed.
6 MR. RICCO: That is going to be resolved.
7 THE COURT: Assuming the Gaudin matter is resolved,
8 the government still contemplates calling a Somalia witness?
9 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, yes, but we haven't
10 heard from the defense yet on whether they are calling --
11 there has been a shifting target. We haven't heard the whole
12 defense case.
13 THE COURT: Assume you have.
14 MR. FITZGERALD: Assuming we do, the witness is an
15 hour. It's a couple hours, not days.
16 THE COURT: But he will be available?
17 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, we will make him available.
18 THE COURT: Monday, Tuesday?
19 MR. FITZGERALD: Judge, I will look. I didn't know
20 the schedule was changing.
21 THE COURT: That's the whole purpose of this, is to
22 alert you that the timetable may be faster than had previously
23 been anticipated.
24 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, if I may, I thought that
25 the government -- generally the government puts on their case
4339
1 and then we go. So if their witness is going to be very
2 brief, why don't they do their witness first on Monday and
3 then we will follow with our witness. Because we have some
4 discovery, I assume we will have the rest of the discovery
5 this week.
6 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, it was delayed for Mr.
7 Schmidt to await discovery. My last discussion with the
8 Department of Defense was they got the high priority items out
9 which we gave to Mr. Schmidt, but the scope could take months.
10 THE COURT: Can that witness be available Monday?
11 MR. FITZGERALD: I can find out and advise the court
12 and counsel tomorrow in writing.
13 THE COURT: If he can, the suggestion is that he
14 would be the first order of business on Monday.
15 MR. FITZGERALD: If he were, your Honor, I take it we
16 will not split direct and cross-examination. Counsel will be
17 prepared to cross-examine.
18 MR. SCHMIDT: If I get the relevant material within
19 the next couple of days, certainly I will be.
20 THE COURT: Memo from counsel for El Hage on venue, I
21 am told I will have that tomorrow.
22 I hope to have, assuming that I get the government's
23 proposed redacted indictment later this evening --
24 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, Judge, it will go out tonight.
25 THE COURT: I would hope by the close of business
4340
1 tomorrow to have a draft two of the court's charge. I think I
2 labeled the previous one draft one, and I dated it. I repeat
3 that if counsel are interested in having maximum input into
4 the charge, that it would be helpful if I could get written
5 comments, objections or proposed additional charges before the
6 weekend.
7 Yes, Mr. Cohn.
8 MR. COHN: Two things, the last first. I thought,
9 and I apologize for obviously misunderstanding, but I thought
10 our comments to draft one were essentially due on Friday, and
11 they will be outdated by your having done draft two.
12 THE COURT: I would think if you have them ready you
13 should submit them, because I think the difference between
14 draft one and draft two may not touch on matters as to which
15 you have comment.
16 MR. COHN: I will.
17 THE COURT: We are all losing a lot of sleep, but
18 obviously the more we can lighten each other's load the better
19 it will be. When I say losing sleep, you know, of course, I
20 am talking about my law clerks.
21 MR. COHN: At my age it doesn't matter. The less I
22 get, the more it prolongs other things.
23 The other thing, Ms. Gasiorowski suggests, and I
24 believe it is only fair, I believe the government's proof as
25 to Somalia, which I understand they are offering, is not
4341
1 probative, or not very probative of the charges in the
2 indictment and highly unnecessarily prejudicial under Rule
3 403, and at some point I want to be heard about that and I
4 guess it is only fair to do that before we hear the witness.
5 I will be glad to do that tomorrow or sometime before the
6 witness comes in. As I read the indictment, the testimony
7 that they are offering does really not meet those issues.
8 THE COURT: You want to respond to that now?
9 MR. FITZGERALD: No, Judge, and if we are going to
10 deal with that issue I think we should tee up the issue of the
11 Somalia expert that the defense is intending to call, all at
12 one time.
13 THE COURT: I am trying to suggest to you that that
14 may never happen.
15 MR. FITZGERALD: OK. No one had told us that.
16 MR. COHN: I will be glad to address it in back
17 today. I just don't want to spread this all out on the record
18 with the press here, quite frankly.
19 THE COURT: Why don't we put on the agenda for Monday
20 as part of the charging conference defendant Al-'Owhali's
21 motion to strike the allegations with respect to Somalia from
22 the redacted indictment. I take it that the redacted
23 indictment includes Somalia.
24 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, Judge.
25 MR. COHN: That's a way to do it. I just don't want
4342
1 to surprise the court, that's all, and cause undue delay as
2 opposed to some necessary delay.
3 THE COURT: I appreciate that.
4 Is there anything I have omitted? Anything that is
5 open?
6 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, Judge. On scheduling, I
7 strongly feel that to require the government to sum up next
8 week would be unfair in light of the circumstances --
9 THE COURT: It is highly unlikely. It is highly
10 unlikely. Why don't we play it that the government will have
11 at least two days' notice.
12 MR. FITZGERALD: Judge, in all seriousness, two days'
13 notice is way too late. We have been up all night many a
14 night and we --
15 THE COURT: All right, fair enough, but as soon as a
16 week from Monday.
17 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, Judge. Thank you.
18 THE COURT: Anything else? Then I will be in
19 chambers tomorrow if there is anything that requires my
20 attention.
21 MR. RICCO: Your Honor, tomorrow morning at 9:30 Mr.
22 Odeh would like to be in the courtroom to go over evidence.
23 The government will have evidence, if the marshals will have
24 Mr. Odeh in the courtroom.
25 THE COURT: You want me to instruct the marshals that
4343
1 Mr. Odeh should be brought to the courtroom tomorrow at 9:30?
2 MR. RICCO: Yes.
3 THE COURT: They are so instructed.
4 MR. WILFORD: Excuse me, your Honor. Can I see you
5 for a brief moment?
6 THE COURT: Sure.
7 (Pause)
8 THE COURT: There is one other matter we want to put
9 on the record while the defendants are still present. Mr.
10 Wilford, you have advised me that both you and Mr. Ricco have
11 an appearance required in the Court of Appeals at 9:30 on
12 Monday but that Mr. Herman will be here.
13 MR. WILFORD: That is correct, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Is it agreeable to Mr. Odeh that the
15 matters go forward so long as Mr. Herman is present?
16 MR. WILFORD: Your Honor, I am sorry. Mr. Odeh
17 doesn't have his headphones on. Can we have a moment so he
18 can hear what the court inquired?
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 DEFENDANT ODEH: No problem, no objection.
21 THE COURT: That is agreeable to you, Mr. Odeh, so
22 that we can go forward as long as Mr. Herman is here?
23 DEFENDANT ODEH: No problem.
24 (Adjourned until Monday, April 23, 2001, at 10:00
25 a.m.)
4344
1
2 INDEX OF EXAMINATION
3 Witness D X RD RX
4 MOHAMED ALI ODEH..........4225 4246 4274
5 ASHIF MOHAMED JUMA........4278 4280 4283 4284
6 SIKANDER JUMA........... 4286 4314 4333 4335
7 DEFENDANT EXHIBITS
8 Exhibit No. Received
9 WEHX-JJJ ...................................4226
10 WEX-W35 and WEX-W35-T ......................4234
11 WEHXW37, WEHXW38 and WEHXW39 ...............4295
12 WEHX-38 ....................................4307
13
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