[Webfunds-users] it works!

Sun Sep 5 01:50:25 1999

> README.html is ok, I'm using jdk1.1.7_v3 (couldn't find 1.1.8 for my
> platform- Linux).

(I think the Linux people are spending more time on 1.2.)

> General documentation, such as what webfunds is,
> explanation of the menus, will show up when it's out of beta, I assume... 

Good answer, I'll go along with that :-)

...
> > > and where would that balanace be
> > > stored?  On my hard drive, or at Systemics?
> > 
> > This is a tricky question.  Are you asking on legal grounds,
> > on bit grounds, on cryptographic grounds, control or access,
> > or what?
> > 
> > The real answer is neither, the value is a shared arrangement
> > between the client and the server, both have signed instructions
> > supporting their view of the transaction.  In practice, we can
> > answer "the balance is on the hard drive / server / Nevis / Internet"
> > all depending on who is asking the question, and what model they
> > have in their head.
>
> That doesn't answer the question, but since you're releasing the source, I
> won't worry about it too much right now.

Ooops, now I see what you are asking.  I thought you
were asking where the money was.  Now I see that you
are asking where the balance figure is stored.

OK, I'll answer where the balance is stored more definately:
there is none.  There is no balance stored in the system,
neither at the server nor the client.

What is stored is transactions.  If some software wants a
balance, it has to count it out (both in the server, and
in the client).  The reasons for doing this is that the
transactions are primary information, and the balance is
secondary, it depends on the transactions.  The design
concentrates on primary data only, and calculates secondary
on the fly.

The next question is where are the transactions stored.
They are on both the client and the server, which is why
I say that it is a shared data arrangement.  Neither side
asks the other what the truth is, they both know themselves.

> > One thing I would say is that there is no balance at
> > Systemics, we are just an outsourced accounting arm.
>
> So you have no way of telling how much digigold I have (which would be
> good)?

:-)  Ouch, trapped.

There is no balance, but the system operator can calculate
the balance of any account.  In fact you can do this on
designated accounts:

   http://www.webfunds.org/ricardo/contracts/digigold/

and click on Sheet in the table.  That does a crude but
effective balance sheet on the fly, which reveals the total
of the mint account:

Balance Sheet - SHA:9c7c9e7bb564224977aea8674623a37407b8f6ee

 SHA#5d3d199cb13b61162d308ce8bbd6fde4bd829d7a       0.0 
 SHA#d493b5dcbecd0deaf381d0d8d4510bfe2d811895   -2000.0 
 credit 41                                       2000.0 
 debit 0                                            0.0 
 Balance Sheet Total                                0.0 

Which is the second one there.  The two listed have a special flag
set that say "print balance on the public balance sheet."  The
others get lumped in to the credit figure.

Now, the issue with seeing *your* balance is that the
system operator doesn't know which account to look at.
Without some clue as to what to look for, the operator
just drowns in a sea of hashes.

(In this case, I have a clue - what account received a small
amount in the last 4 hours, and then sent it back to the
same account.  But, that only works because you told me.)

There are more sophisticated ways to manaage this problem,
for example the use of a blinding formula.  We don't use
it here and now, mostly for architectural reasons (and
also partly for business reasons like the cost of the
patents).

> > > P.S. e-gold always avoids using the term "Deposit", since they're not a
> > > bank.  You should too.
> > 
> > Hmm, interesting point that would take several emails
> > to discuss.  What do you suggest?
>
> I don't know, but I thought 'deposit' meant something specific.

Not sure.  Banking means something specific:  The taking
of deposits from the public and the making of loans to the
deposit.  There's a lot of "ands" there, without it you are
not a bank.  For example, if deposits are taken from shareholders
and loans made to shareholders, then that is more like an S&L
or credit society.

I think in legal terms a deposit is where you place funds
at the account of some institution.  That doesn't happen
here, with this system, you don't have funds on deposit, what
you have is DigiGold, which you purchased by exchanging for
some other valuable thing like e-gold.

iang